Basketball Time Machine: Indiana's 1987 National Championship

Get ready to hit rewind as we take you back to 1987 for a deep dive into the NCAA basketball championship, with a former player who was there on the court! We've got former Hoosier 6-man, Joe Hillman, with us to share what it was really like on the court in that high-stakes match between Indiana and Syracuse, and how Coach Knight's legendary coaching style turned the game around. From pre-game routines to the nerve-wracking final moments, we've got the inside scoop that any basketball fan will love.

Hillman gives us an exclusive walkthrough of the last 29 seconds of the championship game, revealing the critical role of Coach Knight's guidance in securing victory. We discuss the unforgettable game-winning shot, the significance of contributing positively to the game even when not scoring, and how the team managed to play a clean game in the final crucial minutes. Plus, we revisit the electrifying post-game celebration, the inspiring words from Coach Knight, and the unforgettable experiences that followed that championship win.

But that's not all! We also delve into the broader impact of the three-point shot in basketball and how it could add dynamism to the game. Tossing around ideas from getting rid of corner threes to reviving the mid-range jump shot, we stir up an exciting discourse on how the game could be more enjoyable for players and fans alike. So, strap in for a thrilling journey back in time that relives one of the most memorable moments in NCAA basketball history.

Blog Post

In the episode titled "Reliving the 1987 NCAA Championship: An Exclusive Inside View with Joe Hillman," we embark on a nostalgic journey back to one of the most memorable moments in NCAA basketball history. With former Hoosier 6-man, Joe Hillman, guiding us through the exhilarating events of the 1987 NCAA Championship game, we get an insider's view of the high-stakes match between Indiana and Syracuse.

Joe starts by giving us an insight into the game preparations. The quick turnaround after their win in the Final Four didn't allow much time for drills, but Coach Knight's guidance was instrumental in resetting the team's focus and ensuring they were ready to face Syracuse. This look into the pre-game routines is a testament to the meticulous planning and strategy that goes into each game, a facet often overlooked by spectators.

The narrative then moves onto the actual game, highlighting the significance of Coach Knight's decision to switch to a three-guard lineup. The new lineup provided the team with the confidence they needed, and Joe discusses how the pressure from Coach Knight during practice helped the team stay composed in high-pressure game situations.Reflecting on the championship season, Joe notes that despite the team being the least talented of all of Coach Knight's championship teams, they were successful because they executed well and were a closely-knit group. The

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Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:19

Welcome to episode 9 of Iconic Season 1987, the year that saw one of the most iconic matchups in NCAA basketball history. On today's episode, we're going to be recapping the championship game between Indiana and Syracuse. This was THE championship game. It had everything from future pros to buzzer-beating shots. We'll start with former Hoosier 6-man, joe Hillman, who was on the court before, during and after the game. Then my co-host and I get into the nitty-gritty, breaking down the moments and memories. If you're a fan of basketball, you don't want to miss this episode. Tune in and, if you like it, leave us a rating and review. This is episode 9 of Iconic Season 1987. 1987, we're getting the time machine and we talked about the Final Four game last time. So I wanted to kind of start right after that in thinking about, like, how much time do you get to celebrate? Because it's obviously a huge deal to win a Final Four game. So how long do you celebrate? And then what's the reset? Like, how do you reset? Then back to all right, all right, that's enough. We're back to preparing. We still got work to do. 

Speaker 3: 1:35

Yeah, I think that's where Coach Knight was great at. We were all excited on the floor and I remember even saying that Ion gets to steal at the end of the eight dunks and now we're going to win. And I remember everybody getting all excited and we're like, oh hey, we got it. We got another game to play in all fours. Yeah, shut up, joe. We got so many games. So I mean it was good. But then when we got in the locker room, I mean it was pretty much hey, this is great. You know what? We came down here to play 80 minutes and that other game was going on Monday. So let's enjoy this for a little bit. But we got to get ready for Syracuse because we knew we were playing Syracuse, because they played the first game and it was pretty short-lived. And then we didn't get out of there until pretty late, though In fact I remember the first game, the Syracuse Providence game, went over time. So now, back then we played, they took seven guys in a wild card or something and we had to get drug tested. So I think the rest of the team went and then the seven guys that had the drug test, and there was always somebody that couldn't go to the bathroom or whatever, stage fright or dehydrate or something. But we didn't get back until pretty late I mean, I'm going to say one o'clock maybe, but late. So it was a draining game. That biggest game was up and down and once we got out of the locker room, the coach night was always hey, this game doesn't matter if we don't go play well, the next game. I mean, there was never a big win in Indiana, but every loss was the end of the world. I mean, that's just the way it was. Hey, we didn't bring you here to lose, we brought you here to win games, and he was so good at not letting us get too high and keeping us on an even keel. And I think that you see that now in college basketball all the time, where Indiana plays great against Purdue at Purdue, not expecting win, and then they come and lay an egg the next night, two days later or whatever. And so you know, the focus immediately got to what are we going to do now? We just got back to the hotel, grabbed something to eat and then we went to bed, but the guys were tired, and so the next day what was really interesting was, I think we met at 11 o'clock or something and coach said, hey, we've got the floor If we want it like 330, if we want to go shoot around. And Steve said, coach, I'm gassed, I'm tired. And he was like, oh boy, he goes. All right, we don't need to shoot around, we'll shoot around Monday morning before the game. We're fine, you guys are okay with that. Let's just walk through a bunch of stuff. And you know, at the time you and you always walk in three stuff, five, six, seven times and you're kind of rolling your eyes, oh boy, and we can't go against this. You know we, we did and you have such a short turnaround that watched a lot of film. You know, break down in our coaches and coaching staff. But coach, what he would do is he had somebody do the Vegas game and then somebody was already working on Providence and somebody was already working on Syracuse. So coach Waltman had Syracuse. You know he had all this stuff ready to go and it wasn't like I mean walking into that meeting on Sunday. We had that stuff right then and there ready to go which was yeah. 

Speaker 2: 4:41

So what were the impressions of Syracuse then? Just like game film or just kind of talking amongst the guys? Well, they were big, you know. 

Speaker 3: 4:47

I mean Cycle and Coleman were big. I mean they just had a good, solid team. I think Georgetown won the big East that year. I think Alonzo Morning was on that team and maybe in Reggie Williams, and so they were good. I think Syracuse finished that because they were a two seed. But I just remember them being, you know, hey, this is just a solid team. They got a lot of good players. Trish was a good college player, you know. Then they had Monroe, good college player, sherman Douglas, really good, you know, guys playing the NBA for a long time. And you know, cycle was just a big man, I mean he was, he was an older guy, he was a senior and he was big. Coleman was a freshman, but long and I don't remember. I don't remember us, and probably because we didn't have a week to prepare for him like we did Vegas, I don't remember the preparation as being as diligent and going through the practices, because we didn't practice. I mean we walked through stuff. 

Speaker 2: 5:38

Are you guys in the hotel room doing that, doing the walkers? Yeah, in the hotel ballroom, yeah. 

Speaker 3: 5:42

You go to a ballroom and you're walking through and then that film set up and some you know, coach usually had a suite We'd go in and watch film and then we'd go to the ballroom and we I mean literally Aaron, we probably did that five or six times on Sunday when we'd go watch through, kind of almost like okay, hey, let's go watch some more film, go back and walk through, then okay, hey, we're going to eat here, Then we'll go back. You know, you're kind of regurgitating all of it, but we didn't. So we never practiced for the Syracuse, just walked through stuff, had our shoot around on Monday which we didn't go through. We walked through some stuff but we weren't going to walk through with all the media, you know, set up all our switches and do whatever we're going to do defensively. We did that back at the hotel. So really you know that preparation for that game was really all film work. So wasn't the and the game plan? Was it like we had such a specific game plan against Vegas, like, hey, we're going to go up and down and we're going to get the first good shot? You know we prepared for zone against Syracuse for man to man, but they weren't really, you know, you think of Syracuse, you think of the zone. They really weren't playing, they weren't, they didn't do it as much, then yeah. That year they weren't doing it. It didn't come until after that they started playing more zone. So we, you know we prepared for there how we were going to help. We were going to help off with Sherman Douglas from the ball, went in the post, and then we were just, you know, making sure that Monroe wouldn't go, wouldn't go left, because he's a left handed guy that we could help off a Trish, but we had to keep them off the boards, and so there just wasn't the on floor prep that we set up. So a lot of that stuff doesn't even doesn't resonate with me compared to what we did against Vegas. 

Speaker 2: 7:27

Setting that all on, what about like getting into like the pregame stuff? Are you able to try to stay in some of your routines, cause I'm sure a lot of guys have like those pregame routines. But is it the set? Is everybody trying to stay kind of in their same zone? 

Speaker 3: 7:41

Is the well, coach is great about that. We did everything the same. 

Speaker 2: 7:43

Yeah, that's, that's awesome. 

Speaker 3: 7:45

We didn't, we didn't go over there early yeah. We went over there normal. We were never a team. We and I hated doing this on other teams. You know we didn't go out and shoot around and screw around and then come back in and do all that and then go do door whirling. We after the game an hour and a half early, went to the, got everything the guys had to get taped and do whatever. They did that. Then we went out and warmed up and then we came back in and we were out and we played and that never changed. It was just like we didn't even change. Going down Remember where I said in the we went down on Friday. Yeah, yeah you know, nothing changed. So coach was great about that. He just kept everything and now nothing was different. You know the. The one thing I do remember about the four the Syracuse game. John Havichek, the great Celtic, came in and spoke to us Okay, it is before. I think it was before we left the hotel to go to the, to go to the super note, and I'll never forget this. He said when, when, when this game is done, if you can wake up tomorrow, look in the mirror and say I did everything I possibly could do to help us win, then no matter what happens, a night, year or winter, that's a lot coming from him, because that guy you know and you know. So you think about what he said and you say you know what, if I just just don't wake up and say I wish I would have, I wish I could have, I should have done this, if you, if you can just say I did everything I could, then you got beat. You know, and I don't know if that was to kind of keep it, hey, don't think this is too big, or whatever, cause I remember coach nine. I mean, he only said hey, these are the games that you're coming here to play in Indiana, this is what we're here for. So was there, was never focused. Oh, you got it. You know, this is such a big, this is this that the. No, hey, look, we're going to play 40 minutes and this is what you got to do. So that was drilled into us and I don't think there was ever a moment where anybody I can tell you this and never crossed my mind. The only time it crossed my mind is when we went over to the uh, when smart hit the shot and and Syracuse eventually calls a timeout. That's the only time I ever thought I I never walking over to. I think it was all of us, we're going to win this thing. And you know cause? I knew they weren't going to get anything with a second, but that that I guess it just never. It's harder when you're on the bench, I'll tell you this. When you're watching in the game, it's more nerve wracking, because once you get out of the flow, it's you're just now. Now it's now. You're playing and now it's the normal. You just get involved and now it's instinct, reaction, anticipation. But when you're sitting over there it's it's way harder. I'm sure it's. I'm sure it's hard for fans too, cause I remember my dad. I remember seeing a picture of my dad sitting there with my mom, my brother and sister and stuff His hair. He was just looking. It just looked like he'd been through it, looked like he'd been through hell for, you know, for four days. Just look dead, oh my God. 

Speaker 7: 10:45

Rick Callaway's mom wasn't in her seat for much of the first half. She couldn't bear to watch. 

Speaker 6: 10:50

My cup had run us over. You know you can just take so much, and that was it. I had to get up. I wanted to live to see the second half, and if I had remained there I was questionable. 

Speaker 3: 11:01

Watch your own kids play and stuff like that. 

Speaker 2: 11:03

I can't imagine. 

Speaker 3: 11:04

It is hard, but yeah, so that that, that the pregame of that was really. I guess the thing that stuck in my mind the most was when John Havill check you know, just when you get up in the morning, you look in the mirror and make sure, if you can say I did everything I could for us to possibly win, then you're a winner and there's nothing you can, you know nothing to hang your head about. So it was like, hey, look, you know, go out and do your best. If you lose, you lose, you win, you win. You know I mean it was. It was just a good, good memory that I have of that pregame. 

Speaker 2: 11:38

What jumps out at the about the, the start of the game. So you're talking about, like getting in the flow, but watching the start of the, the start of the game would jumped out, or what kind of thoughts were popping in. 

Speaker 3: 11:48

Yeah, um, I didn't play. I didn't play the first 17 minutes, um, maybe in the first 16 minutes and I thought I actually thought I was going to get in there quicker. Uh, just because of how well we had played in the Vegas. I knew guys retired and I remember the game being a little sloppy to start. Neither team was very sharp and I think some of that was fatigue, really hot and humid down in New Orleans on Sunday. Couple teams expended a lot of energy on the Saturday games and so it just wasn't a real clean game. Uh, and then I got in there and and now, now you're playing. I remember just being anxious and anxiety kind of clicking and going uh, what am? I going to get in and oh boy, you know, am I going to get in type of deal, but you're just watching and trying to figure out what's going on. I just remember, uh, they had a couple of plays was like whoa, oh boy, uh, we're going to have to stop these guys. Um. So I got a couple of easy dunks and you know, we hung in there and we weren't playing very well. We knew we weren't playing very well. And then I, we kind of I get in there and we kind of get going, and then when I flipped the ball behind my back to offered him drills of three, we go up the path, I, I, I. Somebody said when we got to the locker room I don't know if it was coach or if it was Steve we got it and said hey guys, we're not even playing our best, we're up one Come on, we can play better than what we're playing. Um, and it wasn't like, oh, we can beat these guys because we're it was, we're up one and we haven't even played. Well, let's go, let's get the guy. I think it was kind of coach, and then he walked off and and they have to. Well, it was, he just walked in. And so what coach would always do? He would walk in and say a few things, unless he was just really pissed, and then he'd go after us, say a couple things, walk out. Coaches would huddle on kind of what the adjustments were going to be to do, and and maybe one of his coaches said hey, look, we're not even playing. We know we can play better than this and we're up one, so let's be, you know, let's be thankful that we're up one and let's. 

Speaker 10: 13:48

But we got to play better and walked out, and then there wasn't a huge adjustment at half, and I remember this bomb at the buzzer made it IU 34 33 at intermission, but Bob Knight was far from comfortable with the way this game was unfolding. 

Speaker 8: 14:03

And I didn't feel very good walking off the floor at the half because we weren't as sharp as we were. Saturday, Syracuse did an excellent job changing defenses and had us standing around a little bit and guessing a little bit more than we should and not really getting the ball where we wanted to go through. Throughout most of the ballgame I thought they did a hell of a job defensively thinking okay, we're gonna be okay. 

Speaker 3: 14:24

I think I don't remember if Darryl got in foul trouble, but I thought that was the Vegas game. So we I do remember them getting on a little spur to start to suck and we did not play well, we were turned the ball over. I got in. I actually got in pretty quick on there because I think I came in with like 18 minutes to go in the game and he took Keith out. So I came in and, yeah, keith went out and I never knew this. Keith then came in from Ricky or something and I remember Keith tell me the story. That coach said I'm giving you one more chance. You do mess this up, I can't play. The rest of the night. It may have happened a little later in the half. You know that was kind of the start of the three guard thing. I came in and played the last 17 minutes. We played with three guards and we really had never done that all year, but then we used it a bunch my last two years. But what really stuck out of my mind in that was how Syracuse most of the time matched us up and brought a third guard in which was a guy, stevie Thompson, who's not much of a scoring factor kind of helped us a little bit. Trish was a better scorer than Stevie Thompson and they matched us and went small for a lot of that, a lot of that, probably at least half to 70% of that time. Then all of a sudden something clicked with Smart. He hit a shot or something, and all of a sudden now, because I think we got down 10. 

Speaker 2: 15:51

You were down 10. 

Speaker 3: 15:52

Yep, and Smart hit something, kind of just a good quick athletic play. We got him in the middle, then he got on a break and laid one in. Then he hit some spectacular layup and all of a sudden it was like we're down two and this guy is off and never, never, lay out who knows, and it's working. And I think at that point Coach just said we're sticking with this, we're going to leave Hillman in and we're going to let Smart run around and we'll have Steve, kind of. And then we just kind of hung in there. 

Speaker 2: 16:19

You gassed at this point, or just like running on it. 

Speaker 3: 16:21

No, no no, no, the game pace was nothing compared to the Vegas pace and so it was just a little more kind of physical banging around, but the game just wasn't as clean. It's just. Neither team I would say would look back and say that was a sharp game. It was just not a very good game. And then again we just we get down the last five minutes and we always had a belief. This team just had a belief we can keep it close, we're going to win, because we just I think we lost one close game the whole year. We lost that. Illinois just didn't execute at the end but we just we were just always comfortable because we knew we could make free throws and we knew we had guys that we could trust to make shots and we knew we probably weren't going to make a mistake or a bad play to hurt us. We just had a belief in that and the good teams that I played on Indiana, we always felt like we were going to win the games at the end and 95% of the time we ended up winning close. 

Speaker 2: 17:17

That might contribute to your confidence too. After you went, after you went, enough of them, you're like all right, we got this Coach put. 

Speaker 3: 17:24

coach, put enough pressure on us to practice that game situations and things like that. You were used to being under pressure because practices man, he could put a lot of pressure on you in practice. I mean, there would be days that he would just get after one or two guys and let's just see how much they can handle. I mean, he just and he got on you and now all of a sudden you got excited and you got and he made you play through that stuff and then he found out, hey, who could play a nutcracker? 

Speaker 8: 17:51

I played for a great coach in Fred Taylor a great coach and and he never let a good play go by in practice that he didn't make mention of. I don't care who made the play it could have been a block out, a pass, come up with a loose ball, whatever and I've really tried to do that in my entire coaching career. But also, I want you to know when you've made mistakes. I don't think mistakes are a part of basketball. I don't think mistakes have to be a part of life. Winning is not making great plays, it's eliminating mistakes. Winning is eliminating poor judgment. It's it's eliminating carelessness. It's eliminating a casual approach. It's it's getting a kid to understand that if this is something he's doing that others depend upon his doing it as well as he can do that, then damn it, do it as well as you can do. 

Speaker 3: 18:51

And and we had trust in and we had good note players too. I mean it also helps that players, you know just and. Then the end of the game just kind of went our way and and and. But. But to our credit we did the things that we needed to do at the end of the game and you know, I'm sure we'll go through that in the last couple of minutes. But we made the right plays and we did the right things and fortunate when they missed a few free throws, yeah take us through it. 

Speaker 2: 19:17

Yeah, let's, let's do it the last few. Yeah, so you know we get to the point where I think we were down. 

Speaker 3: 19:22

We were down free and I think Trish was shooting a free throw and he missed it pretty bad and kind of a long rebound, and smart I get out on a break and this is now with 30 seconds to go, and smart lays in and we call time out and we were down one and coach, I mean I remember all this. So we go, we go to the maybe like 31 seconds left or something. So we call time out, we go to the huddle and coach says all right, here's the deal. We're not garden Coleman or not garden Cycly, whoever, when they get the ball, let's make sure they inbound the ball to one of those two guys and we're going to foul right away. I don't care who does foul. Cycly took the ball out of bounds, which kind of helped us, because now we just didn't guard Coleman at all. And they inbound the ball Coleman and we run and foul and Darrell fouls, and right thing. And so now there's 29 seconds left and coach calls another time out. So we're down one 29 seconds ago and coach says okay, when Coleman misses this free throw, I want the first good shot we get taken. I don't want to take this all the way down to the wire, let's not force anything. But whoever gets a wide open, look a good, look, step up and knock it in. And so that really kind of was like run a regular offense you get a good look, let's take it, let's not force anything, but don't let's not sit around. Think we got to wait till the last second shot. I'm sure if you would have made both free throws we probably would have called another time out because we had another one left. So of course Coleman goes out and misses the free throw. Well, just like coach said, hey, when Coleman misses this free throw now. So I get the ball and I'm bringing up and they're in a box, in one which they hadn't done all night, and so I look at a smart, we're trying to get guys in our box in one offense are kind of what we're, you know, normally do. What we would do is we get one guy in the wing, one guy kind of split in the point, and then Steve would run off screens off the baseline. The problem was Steve had already run off one and now we're kind of stuck to go to the left side. It just took us a little while to get going into it and we were almost kind of staying around a little bit. But the good thing is they were in the box and wanted we keep through the ball to the post and cut. They had nobody guarding him because they were in the zone. So but going back through all of that us getting a rebound, creating a break, scoring, calling time out, letting the guy that get that we wanted to foul, get the ball we found, you know. So all those things that we were supposed to do, we did and then we didn't take well, it wasn't a bad shot now because it went in but Keith had missed that shot. I'm guessing coach would have been all over left because he was on him all year. Quick floating to your left when you shoot the ball you got to jump straight up and down, and you know the looks prettier that way though, oh yeah, it's just amazing. You've obviously seen the picture of the balls of the net. They were all just standing there, and the amazing thing, though, is that ball went in with four seconds left, and nobody, for Syracuse, calls a timeout until Monroe does, kind of walking away with one second. That's when I walked over, and we're kind of like, I mean. I remember I said, steve, we're going to win, we are going to win, this is we're done, you know, and Steve's going to coach said, hey, get Isle in for me, for himself, so that we had our better. You know, athlete defenders on the floor, but in today's game, that clock starts with four seconds, and they got four seconds. We knew they had. You know, with one second to go, you don't have a whole lot of options, and what was weird is Coleman's left hand, and he takes the ball and throws it right-handed and smart gets it and smart wings the ball from the stands. I go what are you doing? That's a ball you just made the game when he shot with and you wind it up into the crowd. I don't know if you ever got that ball back or not? Oh my God that was the first thing I went through my mind. What are you doing? 

Speaker 2: 23:07

It's gone now for sure. 

Speaker 6: 23:09

I cried. I think I cried a great deal when I hit the shot. You know I did more crying in celebration. I tossed the ball into the stands, you know. I thought I tossed it up, you know, but he said it went in the direction where my parents were sitting. My mom, my father, they all were crying behind Oncles and cousins. They were all crying in the stands because they couldn't believe what had happened. 

Speaker 3: 23:29

You know, we just we executed down the stretch. He made some plays, obviously, and Steve did a big three, I think with four or five minutes ago that was over from our bench. That was really big and but we just we executed. Now with some of the things that I thought was crazy and maybe it was because of what happened on the Trish free throw when it went out long and we got a break, that they didn't put anybody on the line when Coleman was shooting the free throws and that he missed it so bad that they could have potentially gotten a rebound. I mean, he was short and it just kind of hit and went straight down. But we took our time, just like coach said and you know that to me, a well coach team, there's no panic, even when we got down 10. Now we made some changes and we kind of freed Keith up to kind of go crazy, as I always say, but other guys made plays to not, and I was. What's fun about the whole thing is everybody contributed to play. It was just we ended up winning that game, not playing our best, and I don't think Syracuse would say they played their best, but I always just say we won that game just because we believed and we knew we were going to make plays at the end. 

Speaker 2: 24:42

That's interesting, that pressure and practice is an interesting. Let me go back. 

Speaker 3: 24:47

This. I was way more worried about the LSU game than the series. 

Speaker 2: 24:51

Really, oh my God. 

Speaker 3: 24:53

Wonder, and now I think about it's probably because I was on the bench, where when you're on the floor you feel like you've got some control, what's going on. But I just the LSU game. I just felt we are out of this thing. We you know what are we doing and LSU was playing really well. Yeah. You know you didn't get the sense that Syracuse was just like on fire and doing whatever. 

Speaker 2: 25:15

Momentum had really shifted on them. 

Speaker 3: 25:18

And they just weren't. They weren't like hitting on all cylinders either, and so you always have a. There was a sense that this we were coming back, play here, play there, and then, like I said, we got going. But you know, going back to the practice, I mean he did, he put. He put heat on guys because he had to find out who was going to be able to play in the end of games. And you know I was, I was always a big believer that matter who starts, who finishes right, and coach found out. And coach found out in practice who was going to finish game. I mean he just did. I mean there was. I remember my senior year. He called me in the office one day and you know we had a week to practice. He goes, how's everybody feeling? I said I was pretty tired, he goes all right. Well, I just want to, I just want to get a little sweat going today, not much. And I said, yeah, anderson's really complaining that he's tired, he goes. Oh, anderson's tired, he goes. Well, this will be a fun day for him. He would have pointed the heads and just picked it. 

Speaker 2: 26:15

Did you tell him that? Sorry, sorry. 

Speaker 3: 26:18

It's a jump out buddy, but I mean he ripped it. He said let's find out what we got with this, because Anderson was a first one. Let's find out about what Anderson's got. He just Anderson could do nothing right, he stayed on in the state and he wants to see are you just going to cave and run away from the play so that you don't? You know playing not to screw up. And hey, when you catch the ball you're just going to pass it back. Are you going to take shots? Because if I you miss, I'm going to get on. I mean, that coach did that stuff in practice and you know you always at the time you're like this guy's crazy. But there was that method. There was always something behind what he was doing, trying to figure out, ok, who the right stuff. And it was interesting. We went to that three guard in the Syracuse game and it just worked. And I don't know why he did it, but he did it. And then we ended up doing it a bunch. We didn't start off doing it the next year, but then, after I don't know so many games, he started putting Edward Jones and I together and then the next year. That's all we did. So crazy. It helped that I could guard the the the forward guy. But it helped us in the Syracuse game, there's no doubt about it, because Keith got some freedom and wasn't handling the ball as much and all this baskets in that in that game were off cuts and moves To where Syracuse really did a poor job of guarding. They were so focused on Steve and all of a sudden now Keith's cutting. We're hitting him on the and he's catching on the move and he's so fast. He's got guys on his hip and do it. He can jump up over guys. 

Speaker 7: 27:52

The way through the second half. It was smart to hit the shot to tie the game at 61. It was smart to tie the game at 63. It was smart to hit this shot to give I US 67 66 lead and ultimately, it was smart on the slide to the side delivering the shot. 

Speaker 3: 28:09

Yeah, it just didn't really open up our office because then he made a couple of nice passes off of him cutting guys going to help dump it to Darrell or Dean and those guys getting dunks and I mean you could just see in the last eight minutes of that Syracuse game Our offense got to go. We started getting easy stuff, yeah, and where we struggled kind of it was almost like a grind before that. So I still tell everybody that is smart, missed. I had the rebound. 

Speaker 2: 28:37

You're going to get the foot back. 

Speaker 3: 28:39

But promise, I have a nightmare. Oh my. God, oh no. I don't know. 

Speaker 2: 28:50

That you mean, bill. 

Speaker 3: 28:51

Buckner oh yeah, you had to leave. I mean really, I woke up when I just shivered. Oh my gosh, I get this. I go up the foul, me, and I miss. 

Speaker 13: 29:01

Oh my God, that would be a whole. 

Speaker 3: 29:04

That's a nightmare. 

Speaker 2: 29:05

That's not as a nightmare for anybody. 

Speaker 3: 29:07

100% you look at that, you look at that deal and yeah, what's the legacy of this, of this team? 

Speaker 2: 29:13

I was thinking about this, like in the context of coaches three championships, 76, 81, and then this one, just like, how do you guys, you know, perceive yourself amongst those? And then you know, just just, I guess you know ending of the ending of the championship era to you know at least, coach nights that's what's unbelievable is that this is the last you know. 

Speaker 3: 29:34

This group is the last. Team is one one, but I would say that we were the least talented of coaches. Teams didn't have anybody that played, you know, had great NBA careers though Dean end up playing a long time in the NBA, but Steve played three years. I think he played a little bit. But but to me, I mean we want a lot of close games that year. I don't want to say we're the toughest team, but I think we executed well, but there's, there's. I don't think there's any doubt that any of us would say, oh, yeah, we were better than the 81 team, oh, we're better than the 76 team, and that you know what? We were good and we were, we were a good group together. We just you know it's weird, I don't remember us being the closest team in the world as far as off the court every day. But man, we, when we had some rough days and there were, you know, we lost four times and it felt like we lost probably 15 times. But when there were rough days that we went through the season, everybody kind of hung together and I think that was the. That was the biggest thing and coach normally gets after the guys that play the most and that he demands the most of. You know he got not Darrell quite a bit started the year with Darrell. She was such a good college basketball player. He was really good that year and then got after smart and Garrett a little bit on. Just, you know their, their whole mentality of getting away from the junior college game and getting into. You know, hey, we've got to execute certain ways. You're not just going to go beat people because you're bigger, faster, quicker, jump higher, and you know. And then he could get on Steve and they just roll on Steve shoulders. He knew he was going to play. You know what? I think that when we had those rough spots this group didn't get into a shell, you know, didn't go. Ok, I got to take care of myself. I don't want him yelling at me. It was like no, no, look, you know what, come on. Hey, he's right, we got to do, we got to. You know, we got to figure this out. 

Speaker 9: 31:35

I actually couldn't end up being better for Darrell Todd and I. This has been a great group for me to play with because we've been able to criticize each other and yet in doing that, we respond well to each other, and it's I'm a really missed playing with my teammates because they're a great group of guys to play with and the experience I've had an under coach night has been unbelievable, and I think one of the things that really helped this team. 

Speaker 3: 31:59

We talked all year about winning the Big 10 and there'd never been a, there'd never been a player through coaches tenure in Indiana, that a player didn't go through his career in Indiana without winning the Big 10 championship and Steve and Darrell and Todd hadn't won one yet. And we went and played at Purdue and at Illinois and lost both those games. So now we're a game back. But we knew Purdue had to go to Michigan, which was going to be a loss. They lost by 30 up there and then we had to beat Ohio State to get a part of the Big 10 championship and we did that and that was huge. I think that was a that was a big relief going into the tournament for us, because now we've accomplished something. And now it was like OK, we won the Big 10, which is all coach ever talked about. He never talked about. Hey, we are winning, we're going to win the Big 10, big 10. And if we get in the tournament now, things fall into place or whatnot. We had some, we had some moments in the tournament that could have gone wrong, but again we hung in there. Auburn game we're down 14 in the first six, seven minutes and coach calls time out and he unloads, like I mean never, I mean it was unbelievable. And then we end up trowels in them and you know it's amazing, we just we didn't play our best. I don't, I don't know, except for the Vegas game. We ever really played a really good game in the tournament, but we were good enough. We had enough plays and we trust each other. It wasn't like we played horrible, I would say. I would say all issues play had something to do with us, but we hope. Boy, we did not play very well against us, they. They run a lot of different stuff on us. We were a little bit confused on what was going on. But but again, we made plays at the end of that game to win. I mean, we could have easily in the same that series game. We made the right plays at the right time. You know, I mean that's the sign to me of a good team is that you don't have to be hitting on all cylinders to win. And you know that that group to me was just a, and there was no. There was. That team just had no jealousy. You know, nobody ever knew Steve was doing this to that. But but if Steve scored 10 and somebody else scored 25. It didn't matter. I mean, it was just what at all cost. We're on a couple teams where there was some issues. 

Speaker 2: 34:18

Yeah, you know that's a hard thing to cultivate. 

Speaker 3: 34:21

Yeah, and you get a little bit of infighting going on and it and you know it's. But that's easy to do. When coach is after you and you're losing some games it's like, oh my gosh, here we go again, type of stuff. But we never really had that one really bad stretch. We lost Illinois and that Purdue back to back because we lost earlier in the year to Vanderbilt, which was a disaster. Oh boy, that was that was. That was a rough day for me. So we lost that game. And then we lost at Iowa. Ok, I remember when we lost at Iowa, coach coming back and saying, all right, we got to take care of business and just win the rest of the games because nobody else is beating Iowa. We're going to have to beat him when we play him at home. And it was kind of it was over with. He was not happy because we didn't play well at Iowa but we had to move to the next big 10 game because let's go, we can't lose another one. Yeah, so we never really had an extended part in that season where he was getting after us. Now, there were days, for sure, but and then we, when you get to the tournament, it's all about let's keep this momentum going and I just think that you know that that Vegas game, the way he set that up, carry over into OK we're. You know we're playing 80 minutes, we're going to win this game. There was never thought going to that series, huge game, that we weren't going to win. Yeah, I mean, there was never like is this going to work or is this? You know, I remember going to the Vegas game thinking, wow, this, we are going to shock people. 

Speaker 2: 35:54

Yeah, it was. It's a shock. 

Speaker 3: 35:57

But we knew, we knew that we could play that way. And coaches kind of like handcuffing us a little bit, it's like, oh, the rain's got let out, now we get to go play the way we all played in high school and you know that that game gave us a lot of confidence going into the Syracuse game. But you know we're thinking we're one seed circus, I mean. So that stuff goes through your mind too. Hey we're, we're, we should win this game. 

Speaker 2: 36:18

I mean it's been so much fun like going back through the games and you know I remember him from being a kid but rewatching them. It's just a joy to watch that team because it really some of the things that you're talking about and relating come out, you know, really do translate. You know, even thinking about him right now, the way that you executed, executed down the stretch, I think the imagination that the players showed throughout the tournament to like hitting, you know hitting threes, and bracing, kind of that, that play, three guard line ups, the, the movement of the, of the offense, the cut you know the cutting, the big guys who could play in space and have that athleticism. There's just a lot of modern elements that that really still translate. 

Speaker 3: 37:01

You know it's interesting to hear all these guys. All the big guys aren't big guys. Darrell Thomas could have put them on the floor and dribbled around and done all that stuff. That wasn't the way it was. That's not the way we played. No, I'm not sure Dean could have done that. Darrell definitely could have done that. It's just such a different. All the dribble and everything when we played was away from the ball. Now everything's on the ball. You know a quick story, you know. So now we end the game and we're all going crazy having fun. We didn't even shake Syracuse's hands, which you know. But at that point and back then the losing team had to sit out there because they announced them. They got the second place they got the run rough stuff and we're cut down the nets, which was just kind of garbage. So we pile on the floor and now we cut the nets down and and we go in the locker room and all the media's in there and I remember I remember sitting in there I'm being interviewed by Bob Lee, who's one of the original ESPN. Guys were sitting there and he and he says, walk us through the last, the last 29 seconds, joe, what? What coach said in the time out? So I'm going through the whole thing and saying, hey, when Coleman misses free throw, I want the first good shot taken, whoever gets it, step up and knock it down. Going through the whole thing, coach night walks by and says, yeah, bob, and Hillman knew not to take that. 

Speaker 2: 38:21

He loved, he loved giving it to you. 

Speaker 3: 38:23

So then I just kind of drew down like I just ruined my day here. 

Speaker 2: 38:28

But walking in. That's what you should have. You should have said but I would have had the rebound. If he missed it, I wouldn't say anything, probably wise. 

Speaker 3: 38:36

So then I go in to take a shower and coaches and we were in the New Orleans Saints locker room stuff, so big, huge, massive, you know 100 stall showers he's sitting, he's got seats on this one shower stall, just sitting there talking, and we're going to the right and I come walking in and and he says to his guys with his back turned me, man, that Hillman earned his car shift tonight. We don't win without him. And that's what I felt like a big part of Indiana. And I don't know if he saw me coming or not. I don't think he did. But he said, yeah, that was huge, that was really neat thing. He said that because I you know this. I'm almost positive this will be a record. We only had four guys scoring the game. 

Speaker 2: 39:21

Yeah, it's crazy. 

Speaker 3: 39:22

You know. But then we talked. You know he talked all year about it, always talked about it, but especially that year just be a positive contributor. You get in the game. You don't have to score, make an assist, screen somebody, block somebody out. You know, defend, just be a positive influence and be a contributor to the game. And he always pumped guys up in the locker room either or end of game if they hadn't scored a bunch. Hey gosh, so and so played unbelievable. Tonight You're two rebounds as a couple plays and you know so those were. Those were always. Those were always things that he talked about because we knew we had guys that could score Darrell and Keith or Steve, darrell and Keith and Ricky and and we all, you know all those guys I was double figure. So when I, on myself, got in the game, you know, wasn't thought about scoring. It was let's do this and we could pick, and Steve and I could pick up the pace defensively and that's what we talked about. When you get a head, okay, let's, let's get after this a little bit, and he was so good at that on that, you know. You look back, you know four guys score what was? Well, that's all, that's all we need it. 

Speaker 2: 40:34

Winning. When you said that winning plays, that really stood out. That matters, because I do think sometimes guys will hit a three and you think it's a big deal, but sometimes it's when, when you hit it or the money, you know being able to hit it in the right moment, or when the pressure on that it that it seems to have more energy or, yeah, the ones I think sometimes you know the ones that that put you ahead or the ones that you're up one or two and you drill three is a bigger shot than when you're down six or seven or ten, eight times ago and you drill three and at that point who cares. 

Speaker 3: 41:05

But just going through those last eight minutes of that Syracuse game, I don't think we had a turnover, maybe a charge or something like that, but I don't remember us having any plays where we threw the ball away or you know, we missed some shots, obviously, but that's going to happen, you're going to miss shots, but we played a pretty clean game the last eight minutes. Now, some things did go our way, but we made plays and we got some steals and we blocked out. You know, I heard a guy the other day say ah, blocking out. Now, with the way the athletes are, the way guys are running all over the place and you have to run guys off the three point line, blocking out is different than it was 30 years ago. So how hard is it to put a? body on that I mean, yeah, you're not gonna block out a guy that's coming free for all from the three point line, but you know, down low you can block guys out. Yeah, I mean you go watch tape and most rebounds are a team shoots it and every defender goes watch as a ball and a guy sneaks in there. You know, look, if you turn around and just see where the guy is going, you can at least bang him a little bit. But you know, yeah, and I mean that's, those are just things that we did and again Coleman, when Coleman misses the free throw and he misses the free throw, let's not, let's not guard cyclical or Coleman, let's let them get it so we can foul. I mean, you think about those. There's such little things, but we did them the right way. That's awesome. I would have been really interested at Syracuse because we talked about we don't have to foul right away. 

Speaker 2: 42:34

Yeah you had time. 

Speaker 3: 42:35

I've been really interested to see what would happen if Monroe or Cycler would have gotten the ball and we would have doubled them and forced them, because we're gonna leave those guys alone to where you know. 15 seconds ago they would have thrown it to them and then we could have fouled them. But it was great. I mean, it was almost like they were listening to our head all of a sudden. Let's just give it to him. Let's just give it to him. That's great. Here's where you go. He throws a four foot pass to Coleman and we just fouled him. I mean, I remember yelling Darryl foul him because he had to run it, because we were leaving him open. We had to run to get to him and he just, he just held on the ball. 

Speaker 2: 43:09

What was the, what was the celebration like then? I mean, obviously now it's not time to celebrate because I have to ask. Because it was funny I was talking to Jason Andreas, who's on the Michigan State team, and he said like Izzo on the plane back to the Lansing is like preparing for the next season. I was like what a sick, what a sick, what a sick go. 

Speaker 3: 43:28

So I'll tell you, even more sick though. So after all the stuff gets done and all the, he coached Ike goes to the media, I think with Steve and Darrell and Keith. You know the rest of the media was in the locker room. It all sells down, we, we've showered, and coach comes in and he says hey, you know what? Darrell, steve, todd, what a great way to end your career. I mean, you guys are seniors, great group Couldn't be more proud of you guys, the way that this whole season came along, the way you guys battled big 10 champs, national champs. Couldn't be more proud of you guys coming back next year. I expect us to be in the same place. Are you crazy? 

Speaker 2: 44:07

So make it to the plate. 

Speaker 3: 44:11

So then, so we weren't going home that night, so we go back to the hotel. All coach said was hey guys, really you know what a great year, Really proud of you guys. Bus leaves tomorrow at seven, 30. Don't anybody be late and remember you were representing Indiana University. He walked out and we just went for a free for all down on Bourbon Street. Yeah. It was great. We had a great time. everywhere you went was IU people. It was, yeah, at the time I remember saying even 10, 15, 20 years after, every final four should be in New Orleans because of Bourbon Street, the way it was set up and for sure big, and the way that they set up the court where it was down in the one end zone. It was dark. You know, that was the it was. It wasn't a bubble, it was a dark ceiling. But we all went out and we scattered. I mean guys with their families and friends and but we all kind of huddled and we bump into each other in the bars and I remember I don't think I mean I didn't go to bed because we had to get up at like 630 or you know, 70 hour and the bus literally left at seven, seven, 30 and we drove a lot. And we get back to Assembly Hall and normally we just pulled up in the outside of Assembly Hall, take our stuff, we drive down in the loading dock and I'm going what are we doing this for? And we get off the bus and there's 25,000 people in Bloomington, I mean, on the floor. The floor is pulled up, all the stands, and they got this big stage set up and we had a big post pep rally after the thing, a big rally that we had no idea and I mean there had to be. There's probably 20,000 people in Assembly Hall. Yeah, so that was Tuesday morning. Then Tuesday night, gosh, we went to the Bluebird or Jake's ever we're up on stage. Yeah, I mean, the whole week is kind of clear. We went to, then we went to the White House on Friday, oh, my. God and all guys. 

Speaker 2: 46:11

Oh, my God. 

Speaker 3: 46:12

Not a whole lot of sleep Dragon. So we got to meet President Reagan yeah, Actually, and Vice President Time Bush, Bush one. So you know, I get to meet two presidents at the time. A lot of fun. But then I got a wake up call Because Saturday morning I had to get up at like 637 o'clock and I was on the bus to go play ball, stayed in a double header for baseball and it was about 30 degrees out. Oh my gosh, what have I done? I haven't taken bad price, I hadn't done anything, all year I've been nearly the first day. I'm sitting there thinking, okay, I am freezing here. Yeah, I had her and the ninth inning of the I think it may have been the first game we were ahead and coach Morgan says he'll get a bat. I'm like what Right now? And I fell one off the other bat and it's done, oh my God. And I said, and I think it was on a, I don't know what it was, it was a two, oh, counter to one count. I fell it off. Thank God the guy threw two straight balls in the dirt. I got a walk. Oh my God. 

Speaker 2: 47:20

I was. 

Speaker 3: 47:21

I was not swinging the back of my. My finger was ringing so bad Couldn't feel it. That was. That was a rough. That Saturday was a rough day 135 degree weather after being out all night for a whole week. We had yeah, it was a great lot of fun. And Bourbon Street on Monday. My parents were there, my brother and one of my sisters was there. A lot of people had family down there. Yeah, yeah, it was a great. We have a lot of a lot of Hoosier fans and it literally on Bourbon Street it felt like it was all IU fans. I mean, it was. It was packed, great, so much fun. And then to come back and see the students I've always said I think it would have been a ton of fun. Fly back to Bloomington that night and gone down to Kirkwood I just don't freeze, is that looked? You know they have those overhead. I have a picture of the overhead. They're at the shoulder fountain and then they're down on Kirkwood. Yeah, but I don't know if we would have gotten back too late, but that would have been a lot of fun too. 

Speaker 2: 48:20

If they told, if they told the students who are coming back, nothing would have been too late, oh yeah let's try. 

Speaker 7: 48:28

For the calm of New Orleans, we go to the wild celebrations in Bloomington. The news center is Jody Davis was in the middle of all that last night. 

Speaker 11: 48:34

See, right now I have to tell you I am really happy to be over Bloomington than down there, because right now the only way I can describe this is that there was a tidal wave of deliriously happy fans that have spilled out onto the streets and now comprised a sea of humanity in downtown Bloomington and at the show Walter fountain. I don't know if any of you IU professors have scheduled classes or cancel them for tomorrow, but you better expect a pretty good absentee rate after this celebration tonight. It is going on in Bloomington. It is going to be on until the wee hours of the morning. 

Speaker 3: 49:07

We can't. The thing in Assembly Hall was really cool because it was all the people that couldn't go to the game, right, you know there was some students that went down the game, but you know it was not like it was. There was a lot of parents, a lot of alumni. But then we got back to Bloomington. It was. It was the town people and the students at Dairy Assembly Hall. That was, that was a lot of fun that was. We spent about an hour and a half every getting up talking to a little story or there and the fans just were it was. It was tough. 

Speaker 2: 49:38

Yeah, coach, I watched one of the clips. Coach night's comment about Louisville, about the sign. Turn the damn sign around, oh my. God. 

Speaker 3: 49:46

That's an all timer. Turn that side. 

Speaker 4: 49:53

It looked and sounded as if I, you had just won the NCAA championship on its home court and coach night had a special message for the 1986 champ Louisville Cardinals and that city's mayor. Here's the scene there same time last year. 

Speaker 8: 50:08

Now, when those teachers come over the river, the first thing they're going to see is this and for night today. I watched the town of Maryland, louisville, to turn the damn sign around. 

Speaker 3: 50:23

Yeah, that was that. That was that, that was that yeah. Thing is in Assembly Hall. Yeah. I don't know if anybody knew that we were going to do that, but it was. That was fun, good time, amazing, great memories. Aaron, I mean, it's just you look back now and you watch every Final Four. They usually show that that I let him keep making the shot. You know, I told him I just still this day I get to be, you know, someone. Never forget man. It's just the reason why I left California, go to Indiana, won a chance to play the national championship team and it happened. And, yeah, just thankful that we got the opportunity. 

Speaker 2: 50:59

Well, I hope we get to see another one sometime, sometime soon, that'd be great Later, but it's you know it's hard. It's not like the big 10. It's not like the big 10 is light and lighten it up in the championship since 2000. You know it's hard. 

Speaker 3: 51:13

You got not only got to be good, you got to have some luck, you got to be lucky. I mean, you know what? We got some luck in the LSU game. I mean, no, no, no doubt about it. And then you know what? Hey circuits makes all their free throws game. 

Speaker 2: 51:25

Who knows? 

Speaker 3: 51:25

what happens? We would probably start jacking up some threes Now. Would we have made them? You know, maybe we had a good three point shooting team with Steve and you know you got to have some things go your way in six games. And that's and to me the hardest thing is is if you have a little bit of a letdown, you got to hope the other teams not playing very well, because you're going to have some. You're going to have some times where you're going to go on some lulls. We went on some lulls at the start of that second half of the Syracuse game but we ride the ship and then they kind of went on their lull and we got a little bit of a run and you got to be able to withstand and not panic Like when we got ahead of Vegas. Vegas made a little run at us but we stood it, you know, and you just got to. You got to play through those things but you got to have some things happen for you too and there's just very few teams are so good that they're just. You don't have to have some luck go your way in the six games. I mean watch, you know, anytime you watch the NCAA tournament, the team that wanted had to get through something in one of those six games, but they went it all. 

Speaker 2: 52:32

No, there's no doubt about it, and I think you spoke to a lot of those things just having that mentality and having that preparation to when that time arises, like figure, figure, a way through it. And then, yeah, you do, just just like in everything in life, you got to get a little bit lucky. But it is that like preparedness to seize those moments when they, when they come up, then too, not just to fall into them. 

Speaker 3: 52:56

There was always that thing that and people talking about oh you give coach nine, five or six days to prepare for a team, he's going to win. We heard all that and you know now we go. That's why, you know, I distinctively remember way more the preparation, the Vegas game, because we had that five days where Syracuse thing was just again, hotel film walkthrough, hotel walkthrough, I mean just. And so now you've got to have a team that can say, okay, we're going to do this and it's going to help us. We didn't have a kind of team that you said, okay, we're just better than everyone else. 

Speaker 7: 53:34

What is Sunday like after winning on Saturday? You have two days until the national championship final. 

Speaker 11: 53:40

I think the first thing like Denny and I, you guys dragged us out of our locker rooms and you had to do all that TV stuff and I think they get them rested. Rested is the main thing. 

Speaker 8: 53:50

Well, I one of the things that you can't hardly wait for that day to get over. You know it's coming, you know you got to wait for practice and all that, but you can't wait for it to get over. 

Speaker 3: 53:59

I mean you got better talent and yours way better than and you probably don't have to prepare as much for it, or? Or you don't have to be a spot on with that, you can just so-called go out and play. Well, that's why those really talented teams end up getting their ass beat because they don't prepare and they think we're just going to go out and we're going to win. You know so, when we had the, the really the one day because it just didn't seem like what we did for the Vegas. But I never felt like we weren't prepared, it was just different and it was almost like, okay, well, let's get this game going and let's just see what happens. We're in the Vegas. It was almost like we knew it was going to happen. That makes sense, it does. You're building for four days. Hey, here's what it's going to be. So, but again, great memories play against me. 

Speaker 2: 54:51

My favorite part about participating in this series is listening to the interviews, listening to the soundscapes and then rewatching the games. When I watched the games I felt like I was really in it or I had a stake in it. Watching these games was like the first time I saw hoop dreams. It's just amazing. These players sharing their stories and their viewpoints from the sidelines or the court allows me to experience the game in a whole new way. It was more than a fan. I was almost like family member or someone who is there. At least I felt a part of it in a way that I certainly didn't before. So stick with us to the end of this episode as we recap the game and break down some of the amazing moments. All right, we're talking Indiana versus Syracuse. This is it the national championship, the last game of the 1987 season, last game of the final for the last national title for Indiana. Let's start with set in the scene. 

Speaker 13: 56:02

I mean, we just watched Indiana upset UNLV Very exciting. Syracuse looked awesome in the game before too. I mean two. Basically, I wouldn't have gave anybody the favorite for this game. Like it's a coin flip and extremely exciting to watch it. I love how Syracuse has the jumping big man However you want to call it like the lobs, and it's this exciting game to watch for sure. 

Speaker 10: 56:27

In the first nine minutes the lead changed hands eight times. Neither team able to open up more than a three point gap. Dean Garrett, one of two junior college transfers and night starting lineup, scored an early follow up dunk for Indiana. The leading score for the Orange was the junior center, ronnie Sicily, who scored all four of his baskets close in His alley. You dunk gave Syracuse its biggest lead up to that point. 

Speaker 2: 56:52

The fact that Syracuse has three professional players. Indiana basically has none. I mean, Alfred goes to the pros but never really sticks, and it's pretty obvious, I think, like those guys stand out as pros, like Sicily Coleman especially, I think, looks like a pro and Sherman Douglas has just that burst that is recognizable in this game. But I do think it's weird. You mentioned before we started that Indiana comes in as the favorite in this game. Do you think that's a coach night thing or what do you think's the reason for Indiana maybe beating UNLV? 

Speaker 13: 57:27

I think probably beating UNLV, and they were 22 and 0 and they're white jerseys. I don't know if that really matters, but I heard him say in the pub or in the game I don't know if that really carries over when you're playing in a neutral site, but I guess. 

Speaker 2: 57:39

Wait, hold on. So players love superstitions, I know, that's right. So did you have superstition? 

Speaker 13: 57:46

I guess I mean, I guarantee, if I put myself in this moment watching this game, I'm sure I could come. I'm sure I would have been excited, I still do it Like I will wear if I'm playing. 

Speaker 2: 57:57

Well, I'll wear the same shoes Like I won't. I won't change it up, you know. Or I'll wear the same like gear set up 100%. 

Speaker 13: 58:04

I mean, I even I hurt myself last time with these shoes that I love and I won't wear them now and I only wear the one pair that I haven't hurt myself again. And I have all these shoes that are perfectly fine. 

Speaker 2: 58:15

I'm just these guys are 22 and oh, they were like this is this game is ours. That's awesome, that's a great, great note there. Well, let's get right to it so that we get it out of the way. Let's go to the play of the game. I mean, I've this one's pretty obvious, I think. What do you? What are your thoughts on the smart shot? 

Speaker 13: 58:33

I mean it's it's pretty close to Jordan shot, right Like. Even like the way he shoots kind of looks like Jordan a little bit because he gets so high up on his jump shot. Yeah, it was pretty awesome. 

Speaker 5: 59:10

I think congratulated by the assistant coach. There's a son, patrick, out there, and there is Panda. 

Speaker 12: 59:15

Monio. He flared out to the corner, I hit Keith and Keith just made a movie at the shot. 

Speaker 8: 59:21

I wanted to go to 15 seconds before we started running our offense. I wanted a shot and a crack at it. I didn't want to really take quite as long as we did. I was. You may have been in here two more seconds and you might have been second guessing me for being an oil coach in history that let the clock wind down without getting a shot at the end. You know, and our kids did a hell of a job. Darrell did not take a panic shot. Darrell didn't make a move where he got in trouble with the basketball. He did a great job with handling the ball and his pass and we got a really, a really good shot. 

Speaker 6: 59:57

I couldn't really go berserk because there was still time on the clock. In. A lot of games have been lost with one second on the clock, so I knew that they still had time on the clock and we had to still prepare a defensive play to stop that, while in crazy shot the last five seconds. 

Speaker 7: 1:00:14

Keith Smart takes the shot, it goes in. You win by one. I couldn't watch it. I had to keep leaving the room. Now, doesn't that just drive you nuts after a while? 

Speaker 8: 1:00:22

Well, I looked up at that shot going through the net with five seconds to go and I felt a hell of a lot better than I did with seven seconds. 

Speaker 13: 1:00:29

Yeah, it was weird, though right he hits it. And why did they not call timeout immediately and get like four seconds? Like I'm just like why is the? We'll talk about that later on the podcast. But yeah, that that by far is the play of the game. But there was some pretty sweet plays in my mind. Like at the very beginning there was a couple of lobs that had their own. One of them, I think Douglas, threw it up and somebody actually hit it in the air. It was redirected and Cycley goes up, grabs it in the air and dunks it. I mean that's that just shows you the pro, like what you're talking about, like the pro you could see, like not everybody's gonna be able to react that fast to catch a ball in the air that's been deflected and dunk it. It's kind of funny. I don't really remember a lot of people doing the behind the back passes, fake passes, layups in, like this kind of generation like. 

Speaker 2: 1:01:29

Who did that in the pro? Rondo did it Rondo. 

Speaker 13: 1:01:31

Yeah, that's what popped out to me when he did it I was like man, maybe that's where Rondo got it. You know, like I'm guessing, maybe pistol Pete or somebody did it. You know the first person, yeah, the first person. But yeah, that was pretty awesome to see in this game too. And it was at a critical point in the game when he made that play and it really faked out. I think it might've been Hillman. It made him jump. It was pretty cool. 

Speaker 1: 1:01:51

But Not taken away by the Orange defensive? It comes away with it, Would you believe the move. So it cues. 

Speaker 5: 1:02:00

Leeds. What he did, brent? He faked the behind the back pass and that just froze the defender. Now watch this he'll freeze the defender. He looks at the defender, fakes like he's going behind the back and do you see, hillman, it almost crossed his feet up, great play. 

Speaker 2: 1:02:17

That was an amazing play and the speed that he does it with that, all that never fails to look great. It's a very like New York move too. So the Syracuse point guards often, you know, come from that New York City lineage and so that feels like a very New York move with that. You know, I just want to talk, I think, the smart shot. I listened to the end of the big trip and the end of one of the 1987 things they had on the Big Ten Network and they talk about how that play is so emblematic of Bob Knight, the way that he wanted basketball to be played. We'll hear Hillman talk about it, where he describes not really a play being set up. I mean Alphard's obviously like the go-to person, but it's not designed with just him in mind, like that's not just like the only option, like we have to move it around till he gets the shot. It is a true motion. It goes down into the post. He realizes he doesn't have it. When he's got the double team he kicks it out and smart, just in rhythm. Even though it's a difficult shot, it does look like he has rhythm on the shot. I mean he rises up, he has a nice follow through. It doesn't feel like he's forced that shot. 

Speaker 13: 1:03:28

That's what I was going to say. It wasn't a forced shot, it was probably a shot he shot in practice, you know, like I mean in rhythm. It wasn't like a guy was up in his face and he was shooting it over him. I mean it was a good shot. 

Speaker 2: 1:03:41

I think the startled nature of him hitting it is what causes them to miss the time out, and I think we forget that there aren't as many assistant coaches at this time either. I mean, there's like 12 assistants now on every team, so someone is going to be screaming at the coach or whoever for a time out. 

Speaker 12: 1:04:07

Both me and Howard signal time out. I thought there were about three seconds left really, but the community, howard was, I was a little more towards half court, howard was right there by the official and we both signal time out. But two ticks went off and then we got one. Just got the one second. 

Speaker 2: 1:04:27

It was just the coach, really, or maybe one assistant. I think he can just be kind of stuck in the moment and the clock ticks away and you know, night not calling a time out to just sort of led to the whole flow of that moment and I think he just got swept away in it. But yeah, it is wild because I think four seconds does make a big difference. 

Speaker 13: 1:04:47

Oh yeah, they could have set something up. Maybe they even got the ball to half court and called time out. They had two seconds. Yeah, ran a play and got a good shot off. So yeah, or a shot off, yeah. 

Speaker 2: 1:04:56

Yeah. 

Speaker 13: 1:04:57

All that time they took with the timeouts and all they did was just launch it up and didn't even get close to anybody Nothing, yeah. 

Speaker 2: 1:05:04

Well, let's rewind to the, to the start of the game. Now we got that out of the way. We can talk a little bit more about it when we circle back around, because it's worth talking about for for an hour. But what jumps out at the at the beginning of the game to you? 

Speaker 13: 1:05:16

Well, one thing that jumped out was they just both teams started slow and we saw this was this the Syracuse game. Before the start of slow yeah, it did. 

Speaker 2: 1:05:25

Yeah, the Providence Syracuse game. 

Speaker 13: 1:05:26

It was I was like man, where's all the scoring? And then it did come, but it it took a little while. It seemed like they were tight and we talked about that in the, the previous, about how players get a little tight at the beginning and why. And the other thing that jumped out to me is the very beginning they're shooting a free throw and they go. Just don't look at yourself in the jumbo tron and I'm like, what is he talking about? Like, and then later on in the, in the game they show there's a big jumbo tron behind the basketball goal. Yeah, like. This is back to our rims. Conversation from the, the previous and the final four is you, this is your set in the biggest stage in college basketball. How do you have a jumbo tron that would interfere with people shooting free throws behind the basket? 

Speaker 2: 1:06:18

Like that doesn't make any sense. They clearly had not thought of some of this stuff through again. This is the benefit of having like another 30 years of this, that they have just thought about all of these things and you, you're seeing like mistakes in real time, like, oh, no one let Jerry Tarkinian know that the half time's over, oh, we set up a jumbo tron right behind where the players are shooting, right in their line of vision. It never happened. Today. I just think that there was the amount of production and money that goes into the final four now helps to not have those things happen. But I think at this, at this point, you know, just them putting it in the super dome is going out on a limb. I mean I'm sure they weren't 100% sure that that they'd be able to fill it. I mean, 68,000 fans sets the record for a basketball game, so they're assuming that it'll fill up. But you know, I'm sure they weren't sure of it and I think that some of those logistics are just kind of not not worked out yet. I loved the Garrett dunk right, right at the beginning. I think that's emblematic. We talked about the catalyst for this season and really that dunk, I think, shows why he was so necessary that athleticism, especially against this front line of Cyclean Coleman, that you need to make them work and you need a guy that can just explode off the floor and challenge them to to have to play defense. You don't want those guys being able to rest on their laurels throughout this game and that that kind of showed like they're not going to be able to sit back and and chill and just score points. 

Speaker 13: 1:07:54

Yeah, I think that, to your point, these two guys smart and Garrett their athletic ability really showed in this game and why you needed them. At certain times they might not have been the most consistent players, but you need players that can take over or be able to use their athletic ability. At certain times it makes a difference, especially when you play more athletic players just to challenge them, like you may not be able to stop them, but maybe just to challenge them and make them make a harder shot or make them play defense a little bit harder, you know did Alfred watch Freddie Banks in the game before and decide I think I should do that. 

Speaker 2: 1:08:35

I don't know he was on fire, that's for sure, four or five in the first half, just like just blazing away. 

Speaker 13: 1:08:45

He was the reason. I mean, there's a lot of reasons, but he is the main reason that we were in the game. Yeah, that's, that was one of the things too. That jumped out to me is like Syracuse had so many opportunities in this game just to extend leads and they would have just made the easy shots because they were getting so many rebounds. 

Speaker 1: 1:09:06

Retirement. Monroe misses the three and another rebound for Coleman comes up and puts it in what a game that freshman's having. 

Speaker 5: 1:09:15

He's the plastic man. He's reaching those arms out. Another great rebound. Coleman has another one. 

Speaker 10: 1:09:23

Nineteen rebound and Coleman seemed to be everywhere. During the 15 to three spree he had three block shots and one steal, which delighted every Syracuse fan, including his mother. 

Speaker 13: 1:09:36

Like you could just tell you just weren't going to keep him off the glass all day. 

Speaker 2: 1:09:39

Yeah, coleman has five fewer rebounds than the whole Indiana team in the first half. 

Speaker 13: 1:09:44

That's what I mean. Like they're. They're right there, point blank. You know little shots. They probably make nine out of 10, right, and if they hit these shots, maybe the leads 14 or 16, and you know, I you can't even come back, yeah, then. 

Speaker 2: 1:09:57

then you're in that kind of cycle where you're trying to push, push back and just having having trouble with it. 

Speaker 8: 1:10:02

And I didn't feel very good walking off the floor at the half because we weren't as sharp as we were. Saturday Syracuse did an excellent job changing defenses and had us standing around a little bit and guessing a little bit more than we should and not really getting the ball where we wanted to go. Throughout most of the ballgame I thought they did a hell of a job defensively. 

Speaker 2: 1:10:22

I think too. I wanted to talk just about how cold Alfred was then at the end of the game and the ebb and flow of the smart coming in and scoring 10 points there down the stretch, like the ability of these guys to be ready for the for the moment. I think it's a big deal in this game where we talked about the previous game, like guys being tied, or tied at the beginning of the game. You know he goes out and then comes back in and isn't afraid of the moment, like wasn't afraid that he got taken out, like that was clearly established by night. And then night telling him like you're going to go back in and I want you, you know I want you to do this, and then him season season the moment, like going in there, realizing that he had an advantage athletically and could go at Syracuse in that way, not afraid of the size that maybe some of the other IU players were being a little intimidated by. 

Speaker 13: 1:11:13

And maybe the him being a Juco helped him because his maturity level realized that, okay, I need to wake up and I can do this Right. Like besides, maybe if you have a younger player you pull him out like that, then maybe he's done. You know what I mean. Like he can't recover, and the one thing that it that was a big coaching moment for night in this game, but one that I personally thought that was huge was bringing Hillman in the second half. Hillman played really good defense on Sherman. The announcer was like oh, sherman's going to take advantage of Hillman and he didn't. Hillman. Just it was good positional defense. He made him work and really Douglas didn't do much against him. Actually, douglas did more against smart than he did against Hillman and Hillman just made solid plays. And I think that just goes back to what we talked about before. To win a championship you had to have all levels. This is just a netted level of their team that from the trip or wherever we want to say it came from, like he was willing he's a good basketball player to sit there on the bench and then come in and do what he needs to do and be okay with it. For most teams in the country he probably could have started. From what I've watched of him, he was a solid basketball player. He might not have had the ability, the athletic ability of smart, but he was just consistent. He was going to give you good defense. He was going to be smart with the basketball because they have him bringing the ball on the court, not Alfred, you know they had him bringing it up to set things up. When you think about this IU team, you know, with him coming off the bench, I'll I'll like they just had two guys that were fundamentally sound to come off the bench and they didn't. They may not have elevated offensive for the team, but they didn't lose anything. 

Speaker 2: 1:12:55

Well, I think that's the genius part of the genius of night two here and Hillman talked about it in the last podcast where he said it was during practice, like you'd have an opportunity at IU, like it was about performance. It wasn't about your name or your reputation or or whatever it was. Seven guys are the are playing, and then there's two guys behind that, or however many, basically trying to earn their way into that seven, because those are the guys that are going to play the majority of the game. So every opportunity, every time at practice, is an opportunity to show that, that stuff. And then when you get in the game, of course, there's an opportunity to show it as well, to to, to fit in, to do what is needed to win, rather than making it about you. And I think that's why he benches. You know that for me, that coaching moment of him benching smart is that moment. I don't know what, what happened with smart, but it did seem like it was about him. For a minute he sits down. I mean that's a big thing. Sit one of your starters in the middle of the national championship game, chew, chew on him and just let him, let him marinate there. I mean it takes a lot. 

Speaker 13: 1:14:04

That's a lot to be like. Hey, go sit on the bench while we're losing. We really could use you. Yeah. But I'm going to. This is the learning lesson for you in the national championship. Like it isn't, like it was just a normal game. You know that's the crazy part. You can see somebody doing that, like in the middle of the big 10 or something. You know like, oh, let's just sit early in the season and then you'll learn and then later you'll be ready but to do it in the national championship game when you needed the speed. 

Speaker 2: 1:14:30

Well then to the trust to put him back in. I think that's the other part, that that sometimes goes unrecognized, because night often gets characterized and rightly so a lot of times for his hard nose approach. We're just like you're not doing what I need you to do, I'm mad at you, sit down or what you know, chew on you. But then there is that other aspect of it where he had that conversation with them and puts them back in and that takes a measure of trust and a relationship to know like, all right, we're going to, we're going to go for this and try and win it, and I need you, like I do. I do need you and you've got to, you've got to play, but you got to do it my way to bring us over the finish line and it works. 

Speaker 13: 1:15:08

So I think this game shows the importance of them out of the three point line right For you because they don't have the three point line I you does not have a chance to win this game right, and you know, I think that it definitely made the game more exciting. 

Speaker 2: 1:15:26

I think so. Yeah, I think I think both of the. You know all the games were exciting. In fact, the way the teams got to this final four was using the three point line in different ways or different times, and I think that's what it has become Like it is. It's a, it's ultimately a weapon, in that if you're hitting and I think the criticisms of it now are that people have used the math on it to blow out the two point you know the mid range. Yeah, some of the game right, because the math is so overwhelming for the three they don't even acknowledge the possibility that there's another way to play basketball. And that is annoying sometimes because I do get the math, but I you also showed in the Vegas game, by only hitting a couple of threes and Vegas shooting 30s plus, that you can win with just twos as well. Now you have to do it a different way and you have to be really efficient. You have to be patient and work the ball and maybe the shot clock works against that. The shorter shot clock works against that now a little bit, but it is still possible to go about that way. But when, when it's going down, it always looks nice. 

Speaker 13: 1:16:36

Oh yeah, and it does open up the floor for more dunks to yes, I like it makes the game more exciting. 

Speaker 2: 1:16:42

It spreads the game out. It allows those little guards to to move around more. I mean, I remember watching some of the older IU games and watching them pass it around the perimeter for a long time. Again, no shot, no shot, clock in some of them and then just trying to find ways into to work the ball in. Let's talk about the long shot moments of this game. Which long shots? We've talked some about the three point shot which one's defined this game in your, in your mind. I had a couple and I had actually a miss. That really defined it for me. 

Speaker 13: 1:17:15

Yeah, I mean, obviously I don't know how offered gets a shot at the end of the half. I mean he's on fire, so how do they allow him to get open? Well, Helmets, that's a nasty screen is what it is he did, but still you think they would almost, because it was three seconds to you think they would. Everybody attacking, making me a pass. 

Speaker 5: 1:17:33

And look at what they do. They switched to a little box and one and looking to try to keep it away from offered. They don't do it. 

Speaker 1: 1:17:42

The three at the buzzer. Four threes for Steve Alford, and Indiana takes the half time lead as a result. Take a look at this shot how he got free Hillman screened off cycling. All for those up. Hold the trigger. We've come to the end of the half. It is in the end of 34. 

Speaker 13: 1:18:02

Syracuse 33. But yeah, that was definitely a big moment in the game because really I felt that first half Syracuse really dominated and somehow we go into halftime up by one. Right, you're like, wow, if I was, if this was real time and I'm watching this game, I'm like we're going to win this. We've been not good, besides offered the first half. We have to play better. 

Speaker 2: 1:18:26

And we're up one and we're up one. So I wonder if it goes. You said something in the last podcast that I thought made a lot of sense, that you've played defense one way for three years and now your fourth year, or maybe even your your first year if you're, you know, coleman coming out of high school. There's this thing that you all of a sudden have to have to think about and it's just, it's just different. It really is different. People, even today, if you're a really good shooter, maybe don't realize, like, how easy it is for for some people, especially if they start hitting. Like, once Alfred's on fire, that is a free throw for him. He's he's knocking that. He's just knocking that in and it looks effortless. And I'm not sure that they realize how, how big a deal it is to just kind of let those go Like, oh, that's a tough shot. Because they talked about when was it? When we were talking about the introduction of three point line, one of the teams was saying their guys couldn't hit a three pointer for the first two weeks of shooting it in practice. And you're just like what? Well it sounds, it sounds insane. So I think still at this time, because big guys don't shoot three, oh no. I get barely shoot, jump shot. Every big guy in the world, you know when. Ben Yama, you know, the number one pick now is, you know, shooting one leg at threes, but that was not even thought of, and so I think that maybe you're almost like, okay, that's not a great, great shot. 

Speaker 13: 1:19:52

Well, I would say, not thought of. I would say you're benched If you do that shot in the game before the three point line. You're benched because they're like that's the worst shot, basketball. What are you thinking? Yes, so your whole life that they're telling you you don't shoot that ever, like, unless you want to sit on that bench, and we'll bring somebody. I don't care if they could shoot or not, we'll bring them in because we're not doing layups. We're working for good shots. There's no shot clock. We're going to work it around. I mean that it was. It was a really big deal for basketball to get a shot clock. Let's be honest, like nobody wants to sit there and watch people pass the ball around and do four corners for three minutes, Might as well be watching baseball. 

Speaker 2: 1:20:34

I thought another one too was Monroe's air ball near the end of the game. So Alfred's on this streak where he doesn't score for, I think, seven minutes at the end of the game. So he's really cold. Smart stepping up at this point. Thankfully for IU. But Monroe airballs this shot. It's a pretty long shot, not a three, but misses by a lot. He should have shot a three because he missed it by about two feet. They grabbed the rebound long outlet to Alfred. And what a turnaround again. Just like that sometimes those plays can have such a back breaking or momentum shifting time. You get one guy a shot that's been cold. You energize the fan base. The air ball feels so deflating, even though it's just. 

Speaker 13: 1:21:14

It's just a miss you know, I even felt like the past, though he didn't really know what he wanted to do, he just kind of launched it, and when he launched it I was like where is he going? And then, all of a sudden, alfred comes out of nowhere. 

Speaker 1: 1:21:26

Go for the three. He was off balance, missed it and Thomas caught it. And here's all for breaking free In a foot race with Monroe. 

Speaker 10: 1:21:37

But then Monroe, with a chance to increase the Syracuse lead miss by a mile. Thomas took the air ball and fed, offered with four minutes to play, offered into his scoring drought. 

Speaker 13: 1:21:49

That was. That was a turn of events, because, I mean, merrill in this game plays well, well good. He made a lot of big shots when momentum was switching to stop IU from taking the lead. He made a bunch of big shots where he hit some threes. He had some some jumpers. He had a really good game and I mean, you're pointing out the one bad shot that he had. Well, just because it was so, it was so big. 

Speaker 2: 1:22:13

That was the, that was a moment. He hits that they go, they go up, I think by what, three or four, and instead he airballs it and then I use up one, yeah, and so it just is. It's those little things. It's such a mental game to at the end where you're trying to overcome or come back and that really does feel like you can't get over the hump, or just oh man, that that you know the rest of the team seeing a guy who's been playing well airball. It can be such a psychological downer, especially for guys that are that are, you know, so young. 

Speaker 13: 1:22:44

I mean? I mean, if you're Bayhawley, I think that you're fine with the shot, though. 

Speaker 2: 1:22:48

Oh, yeah, for sure. 

Speaker 3: 1:22:49

I mean it's just. 

Speaker 13: 1:22:49

it's just the way it played out, you know. I mean, you said he could have made it. Isn't like it was such a hard shot, like he couldn't have made it? He'd made shots like that during the game already. It was just yeah. For an older player it was surprising how bad it was. 

Speaker 2: 1:23:04

Maybe just let that his hands. So something happened. Okay, let's get to our buyer sell takes. I'm going to start out with one about Coleman. What do you have been the MVP, the final four MVP, if they win this, absolutely Right, a freshman though I mean I finished with 18, 19, 19 rebounds. I mean he played great in the game before to again. 

Speaker 13: 1:23:29

You know he still was down there and he was making people change their shots and, yeah, he definitely would have been playing the game from my point. 

Speaker 2: 1:23:37

I think so too. But, boy, that free throw to you. Know, you hear about missing free throws and that is that's the way they lost the game. 

Speaker 13: 1:23:46

That's an all time. If I was a Syracuse fan, that would just be so hard. 

Speaker 2: 1:23:52

Devastated Because you had the game To hear Hillman retell to Knight in the huddle saying he's going to miss it, like just calling his shot and saying Coleman's after, coleman misses this, here's what, here's what we're doing. He was just, he just knew he was going to miss it. And I mean, if it doesn't happen, of course it's not as cool, but the fact that he does incredible Like he's, that's just apex mountain for coach Knight, seeming to know everything. And Hillman kind of recognizes that. 

Speaker 13: 1:24:23

They weren't really good three throw shooting team though. No, and they said that all game. They were not. They knew whenever it got to the end. Well, here it goes If they make their free throws, they could win or you can come back in this game, just depends on if they hit or not. Which is pretty crazy to me that they were that bad at free throws, because, you know, when I was a kid, my dad always be like shoot your free throws, shoot your free throws. And maybe that's why he always said it, because maybe, maybe, he was like so mad at watching. IU miss three throws. That he's like we can't we got to change this. 

Speaker 2: 1:24:54

Here's my other buyer cell take. Is the three point shot good for basketball? 

Speaker 13: 1:24:57

We talked about it already. I absolutely. 

Speaker 2: 1:24:59

Absolutely. I think that unequivocally. Even that, even now, like well, I mean because I feel like we're almost at a tip, at a tipping point, I mean at this point I would say unequivocally yes, it's. It's making the game more fun. It helps teams that are not quite as talented overcome that, overcome that deficit. It adds some randomness to the games. That's exciting. But is it still there as people shoot more and more and I don't even know if we've reached the top level of people shooting threes Like is there? Is there a point where it's kind of like you know what? It might not, it might not be, because there are, there are rules that we've recognized in basketball. At some point. We don't want that anymore. The hand checking rule just got out of control, right when it became a wrestling match, and that wasn't what basketball wanted to be. I mean, there was talk at you know back in the day about raising the rims to 11 feet. There there are just you know questions where it's just like is it? Is there a point where it should, it should change? 

Speaker 13: 1:25:59

I don't know what you're saying is do you think at some point it should change, because it's too easy? 

Speaker 2: 1:26:06

Well, they've been for some of the rules, so what they've been doing now is they've been moving it back right. The college three point line isn't 19 feet nine inches anymore, it's moved way back. The the NBA line has been moved in and moved. Now it's moved back. I mean there are ways to change it, like in a pros. One of the things I've heard is like get rid of the corner threes. Basically you only have the arc because they shoot pro shoot 50% from the corners right. So they shoot a ton of corner threes because it's closer, just the way that the court is designed. So get rid of the corner threes. So some way to maybe not totally get rid of it but limit the opportunities for it. So if there you could do the same thing in college right, even though it doesn't have the cuts on the corner threes, you just cut the area so it's not a three pointer from the, from the corner, so you only limit the area of the court where you can shoot it. And so then you have to have more, more dynamism to the game. I'm just kind of tired of fast break, kick to the wing, shoot a three right. That just seems to be the thing to do and it looks a little more formulaic than I'd like it to. I mean, part of what I love about basketball is the unexpected, and now it's almost like I can tell what's going to happen before it even happens. 

Speaker 13: 1:27:17

Yeah, I think there's a lot of bad things about it but there's a lot of good things. You got to look at, like, if you got a kid that's not athletic but he can shoot a three, right, so he can sit out. I'm talking about the getting to college, not necessarily college and beyond, right, cause I mean the game really is about the youth, right. I mean, yeah, we watched the college, we watched the pros, but the game starts to the youth. So you have to get kids that want to play. So maybe you got a kid that's kind of goofy but he can just sit there and shoot threes, so at least you can put him, you can go them goofy. Yeah, you can put him over in the corner and maybe he can't dribble very good, but he's really good at shooting. So you just put him in the corner and it spreads the court out so he has a part to the team, because now they play zone a lot more. So maybe they can kind of cover him up. You know, maybe you only got four good players in your team and then you got that guy. Now that day he's not a good player, just he's not as good athletically, he just hasn't developed enough, or maybe he's a little bit shorter or you know. So in that aspect I can see how it's good. Now if they move it out further. The only problem I see with it is is you spread the court out so wide. It's going to be really hard to stop these really fast cars. What about getting rid of the corners? I mean, I don't know. I mean I feel you just don't have guys. 

Speaker 2: 1:28:43

I mean, the idea is you don't have guys standing there in the corners anymore. You know it doesn't make any sense to have them just stand there because there's it's not that opportunity to hit a three. 

Speaker 13: 1:28:53

I mean, they just figure out different ways to maybe like, if you're going to be a good player, maybe like, if you put it out further, then they can just have, like the, the beer guys be closer to the rim. So when the guards get around the other guys there's so much space that the help defense can't get to them, and then it's just going to be dunks. That's all right. You know, I'm saying like it's going to change. Anytime you make changes, there's always going to be. 

Speaker 2: 1:29:14

I don't care about the changes. Okay, so it's not the changes, though Different part of the game that people like. It's not the changes, though, it's the formula. I don't want it to become so formulaic Again that you know V game, 38 threes is like shocking in there. But I mean now it's like if you don't shoot 38 threes, what's wrong with you? 

Speaker 13: 1:29:32

Yeah, you know? I mean I would like to see the jump shop being brought back. Yeah, you know, like the mid range off the dribble. 

Speaker 2: 1:29:39

Yeah, it looks cool, Right yeah? 

Speaker 13: 1:29:41

it looks cool and it opens up the whole game, but it's more and it's more interesting. 

Speaker 2: 1:29:47

There's just more possibilities. You know that's. That's what I like about it. 

Speaker 13: 1:29:51

I would like to see more or less one on one, and that sounds bad because the NBA is based on one on one. Everybody now Right. More actual fundamentals. 

Speaker 2: 1:30:03

Well, they've got the ability, though I feel like every guy in the NBA could score 20 points a game. So yeah, but now the problem is they're watching these guys. 

Speaker 13: 1:30:10

Yeah, the kids are, and then they're trying to simulate what these people are doing and they don't have that ability. Agreed, you know, like where, like for I? You right, these kids are watching Steve offered. They're thinking okay, I want to learn this pump fake to step through. You know the fundamentals. 

Speaker 2: 1:30:27

Nobody's, nobody's thinking they want to learn the pump fake that they want to be like Steve offered. They're thinking they want to hit that splashy three after Hillman set the screen for him. 

Speaker 13: 1:30:35

Oh, probably that's right, sure All right With. 

Speaker 2: 1:30:38

this game have been better with Bill Walton announcing. 

Speaker 10: 1:30:40

I'm Bill, I'm where. 

Speaker 1: 1:30:41

I stand for today and we've got the game of the millennium. 

Speaker 2: 1:30:44

tonight it doesn't get any better than this. 

Speaker 10: 1:30:48

I learned to love your job. Love pressure, let's go. I think can succeed here. Barack Obama, I don't think he's going to coach, so you keep saying that. But why? Why are you so negative? Why do you just turn down Party on? It's a wonderful day, it's Oregon, the sun was out, come on. 

Speaker 13: 1:31:05

Oh, I mean I always say absolutely. This game is especially. I mean I think that he would have just went crazy with the dunks. He would have went crazy with three. 

Speaker 2: 1:31:14

That last shot, that last shot, oh my gosh. 

Speaker 13: 1:31:17

Cause, even like after offered it with like the seven three or whatever he would be like oh my God, you know the rain and down or something. There would have been some kind of excitement and they're just like offered's on fire, he's hit seven threes. 

Speaker 2: 1:31:30

He would. He would have been just anybody with a I love Gus Johnson too, or just any of the announcers that get excited at that last shot. I mean the last shot seems almost. They almost seem as shocked as Bayhime that he, that he hits it. Yeah, Bam's like, oh my. 

Speaker 13: 1:31:50

God, oh my God, oh my God. We're about to lose the actual team. I cannot believe we're going to use this game basically, yeah, yeah, for sure. 

Speaker 2: 1:31:57

Big picture context. What did the game mean for night in Indiana and what did it mean for Syracuse? 

Speaker 13: 1:32:04

I mean for for Bob night in Indiana. I mean, I think it put Bob night on the, where I'm looking for Mount. Rushmore. That's what I was looking for. That's what. I was looking for Mount Rushmore, as one of the greatest coaches ever to coach for Syracuse, I mean I don't. I mean I don't think that you can really be upset. You lost national championship. 

Speaker 2: 1:32:22

Yeah, Bayhime's on the map right. 

Speaker 13: 1:32:24

Yeah. 

Speaker 2: 1:32:25

After this is an amazing coach. 

Speaker 13: 1:32:26

He was a good coach before this. So, I mean I think that it set him up and he probably helped him get more players and Syracuse to be at a high level. So I don't really think it really affected Syracuse in a negative light by any means. I mean they're national, you know, national stage in an exciting game Different. 

Speaker 2: 1:32:43

What. What a different era for coaches, though, to think about. Bayhime loses this game, doesn't win a national championship till 2003. I mean, what are the chances that a coach would still be, would still be around? It's amazing, you know, like he was there forever and just kind of the ebbs and flows and them sticking with him, because that doesn't. It doesn't seem to happen. Even if a coach has success, they want a certain level of success. 

Speaker 13: 1:33:12

If he came 2000, he wouldn't have been, he wouldn't have lasted when the last no like. But I think because he was the legacy. But it's kind of like Bob pushed out because of certain situations. But if he wouldn't have they would have. He could have been mediocre in the big 10 and they would have just kept allowing him to be the coach. Right, they wouldn't have pushed him out Like they had to have a reason and that's like. It's kind of like coach K or our even Calipari at Kentucky. They say, get rid of him. It's hard to get rid of those coaches because you don't know what's going to happen. 

Speaker 2: 1:33:45

Even Bayhime. The way it ended for him was weird. They basically didn't renew his contract. He didn't really end it and I think it was just. It's just tough. You know, that guy's such a legacy and I don't know it'll never happen again. Just was. It was an era of college basketball where they helped grow the game so much with their personalities that I think that is part of what set them apart. It's like these coaches, as much as the players, define this final four right Petino, bayhime, tarkanian Knight. They're the biggest stars in this tournament. 

Speaker 13: 1:34:18

I mean Petino, you know like he's still going by the way yeah. That's what I mean. It's like kind of what you said they kind of made college basketball, yeah, you know like they're a huge part. It's kind of like burden magic or like it's it, it's without them. You know, college basketball is it doesn't become. 

Speaker 2: 1:34:39

what it did Doesn't exist in the way it does for sure. For sure. 

Speaker 10: 1:34:44

The final four was history. Once again, glittering history. 

Speaker 2: 1:34:57

Thank you for joining us for this look back at the 1987 national championship game. Iconic Seasons 1987 is a principal podcast production. I'm your host and executive producer, aaron Meyer. Robert Weier is my contributor. A special thanks to Joe Hillman for reliving his journey. If you enjoy this series, head over to Apple Podcasts, spotify, youtube or wherever you get your podcasts, follow the show and make sure to leave us a rating and review. It really helps us and helps others discover the show. If you want to get in touch with any questions or comments about the show, send us an email or email address is hardwoodhistorycom. You can also find us on YouTube at Iconic Seasons. Once again for listening. We'll be back soon with the final episode