The Spectacular 1987 Final Four: Indiana Hoosiers Triumph Over UNLV Rebels

The Indiana Hoosiers managed to overcome the UNLV Runnin' Rebels in the unforgettable 1987 Final Four match-up. Joe Hillman, former Hoosier Six man, sheds light on the contrasting strategies that played out on the Superdome court. Joe will share unique insights, revealing how IU's press defense was instrumental in controlling UNLV and their two-dimensional attack.

Join us as we delve into the mesmerizing world of 1987 basketball. We'll explore the impact of the three-point line and dissect the strategies that made this game a heart-stopping spectacle. We'll delve into Freddie Banks' astounding 19 three-pointers and discuss how this moment resonates with the Phoenix Suns under Steve Nash. We'll also tackle how the unpredictability of one-and-done tournaments can swing the game in unexpected ways.

Finally, we'll reflect on how this iconic game has shaped modern basketball. Ever thought about the influence of Coach Knight's calmness and Tarkinian's idiosyncratic towel use? Or speculated what it would've been like if Bill Walton was announcing? We'll discuss it all and more, including what it took to build the victorious Indiana team. From understanding roles to implementing an efficient offense and robust defense, we'll walk you through the journey of their triumph. Listen in and don't miss out on this exploration of one of NCAA's most iconic seasons.

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Transcript

Transcript

"Welcome to episode 8 of Iconic Seasons 1987, the year that saw one of the most iconic matchups in NCAA basketball ..."

Speaker 1: 0:11

Welcome to episode 8 of Iconic Seasons 1987, the year that saw one of the most iconic matchups in NCAA basketball history. On today's episode, we're going to be recapping the second Final Four game between Indiana and UNLV. This game was everything you could ever want in a championship matchup. It had two of the best teams in the country, some of the most exciting players in the game and it came down to the wire. We'll start by interviewing former Hoosier Six man, joe Hillman, who is on the court for all the action. Then Robert and I deep dive into the game, breaking down every key play and moment. If you're a fan of basketball, you don't want to miss this episode. Tune in and, if you like it, leave us a rating or review. This is episode 8 of Iconic Seasons 1987. We're talking IU UNLV today, the Final Four game, and we start out by setting the scene. This year is just different, with the huge crowds and the New Orleans location, the different storylines coming into the Final Four. I want to start out, get your perspective on what you thought about the location in New Orleans, just the teams in IU, unlv and coming into this game. 

Speaker 2: 1:26

I mean the atmosphere is just crazy, right. I mean they got the most fans they ever attend a game. They show the Superdome, and up there on the ceiling or in the upper seats you can't even hardly see the floor. I mean, personally I'm not the biggest person on Heights, I don't think I'd want to sit up there, I'd probably just watch it on TV because you'd be able to see it. But just the atmosphere of walking down the strip, crazy parties, I can only imagine the scene. I mean it had to be almost like a Mardi Gras scene, right For sure. 

Speaker 3: 1:59

You know, you see some of the wildest things at the Final Four, especially when it's in a place like New Orleans. First of all, there's people to meet, like Armand Gilliam and Ronnie Sycaly of Syracuse, and Gary Graham giving Sycaly a left hook with his voodoo doll. You see players stepping out of their favorite disco in New Orleans. Then there's David Willard meeting up with the Providence cheerleaders. Everywhere you go in New Orleans you see these human sharks. 

Speaker 4: 2:26

This is the home of decadence. This would make Las Vegas look a little bit like a synagogue. 

Speaker 5: 2:31

This is a wild place. 

Speaker 2: 2:33

This is the Disney world for adult people and I think it's the most beautiful place on earth for me, and you had a very exciting team in UNLV coming up and down. This is the beginning of a three-point running gun. Right Like the excitement. 

Speaker 1: 2:49

It's literally the beginning, since it's the first year. 

Speaker 2: 2:52

What I'm saying. It's just like a different type of basketball, more exciting type of basketball that before people could stay in the pain or whatever and it kind of got boring. But now you're just running, they're firing it, they're probably more dunks because the floor is more open. And then you got IU, which was a powerhouse back then on a regular basis. That came in with a different style of play. That had to see how that was going to compare to the new style, right. So there's a lot of buzz on how they were going to be able to adjust, right. 

Speaker 1: 3:21

Yeah, I think we watched a couple of news programs just about the size of the Superdome and it is like someone said, it's the eighth wonder of the world and 68,000 people. 

Speaker 6: 3:34

Well, we've got the largest crowd ever for a college basketball game watching the final four here in the Dome 64,959. Folks, not everybody has a perfect seat here. I'm like come on, we're going to show you a couple of them 27 stories above the action in page 1750. 

Speaker 5: 3:49

You've got to wonder if they get their money's worth. 

Speaker 7: 3:51

As a matter of fact, one fan I talked to said that from up here, the game is nothing but a rumor, brent. 

Speaker 3: 3:57

Then there were players amazed at an arena that's got to be about three times the size of the Thomas and Mack. 

Speaker 7: 4:03

God, Ron, I don't really have to say anything about this place. This is huge, it's beautiful though. 

Speaker 5: 4:07

I've never seen nothing like this before. It's like one of the eighth wonders of the world or something like that to me, it's hard for people to imagine. 

Speaker 1: 4:13

maybe now Maybe a lot of the people listening to this might be able to dial in how bad TVs were. So it was probably still worth going to the game, just for the atmosphere, even if you had been far away, because I remember watching TV in the 80s on a tiny little TV. So it's not worth thinking of our beautiful flat screens and HD now. So, yeah, compared to that, it would be awful to sit at those seats, but maybe in 1987 it still might have been worth it. 

Speaker 2: 4:40

I guess it's true, just being in the atmosphere, the crowd's going crazy. I mean, I'm sure they had an audio system in there that had to be pretty loud where everybody could hear at least what's going on, if they couldn't see it perfectly. So yeah, you're probably right. The TVs probably weren't the best back then. You probably couldn't tell it was probably more people listening to it on the radio back then than the TV. 

Speaker 1: 5:01

For sure. I wanted to get your take two on just the preparation for this, because of course, by now hopefully, if people haven't already you should go back and listen to the Hillman and the Freddie Banks interviews because they talk about the different preparations leading up to this game. Iu treats this as like any other game. Basically they stay in Bloomington, they're doing their regular practices, everything is on tee. Meanwhile, vegas flies into the beginning of the week and Tark basically says hey guys, I've never experienced the city. You can imagine college age men. You let them go in New Orleans for a few days. He's lucky that he got everybody back. Let's just say that. 

Speaker 2: 5:44

I would say that is very true. I would say they probably got a little bit of trouble because I'm sure that they had never been in that type of situation some of them where there's so much going on my favorite is one of them says that New Orleans makes Las Vegas look tame. Yeah, it is a different approach, for sure. 

Speaker 3: 6:05

Are you guys going to start getting your mind now on basketball a little more? I know you've had fun and had some parties for the last day or so Is now when you're going to kick in gear for basketball. 

Speaker 4: 6:12

That's what the practice is about today, really about getting our mind back in the basketball. 

Speaker 3: 6:17

What are you listening to, duggy Fresh? Can you hear me, freddie? Oh yeah, I can hear you very well. Tell me how practice was today. Was it pretty intense? Oh, it was very intense. 

Speaker 5: 6:27

I think we did a pretty good job trying to do something that Indiana is going to do. I have a tougher side but I got to guard. Steve offered. 

Speaker 3: 6:35

What do you guys think? Are you guys ready for Indiana? 

Speaker 4: 6:37

Yeah, he copped out. What do you think? No, we're ready, man. 

Speaker 2: 6:41

It is two totally different identities. As far as UNLV was, just like we're going to kind of let the players be the players do whatever they want to do, or Knight has his strict guidelines, so it is pretty much the opposite, right. So it's pretty crazy when you think of it that way. 

Speaker 1: 6:58

It seemed like their mentality is coming into it, and Freddie even acknowledges as much that maybe they weren't as dialed in, and I think that it can feel that way a little bit when you get to the final four. That is such an accomplishment that it can feel like an end of the road rather than like, hey, we've got two more wins to go, and I think that that is interesting. To try to frame it up, coach Knight definitely framed it up as like we're going there to win this and that can you know. You have to almost instill that, especially if you're going up against a quality opponent. 

Speaker 2: 7:34

Well, and I would think too that maybe because they went early, all the praise, all the celebration. You know you almost feel like you've already, like you said that you've already won, right, and I'm sure, like in these guys' heads, you know they're lost one game during the season, like they're untouchable, they're in the final four, like let's go party, we'll be fine. You know where Knight kept him away from that, so maybe he's probably yelling at him telling them they're not very good. You know, up in Bloomington and they don't have all these people praising them and you know like they probably came in more with a mindset of let's go win this than you know if you were partying all week. First year, first year. 

Speaker 1: 8:25

All right, let's let's talk about what jumped out. So the game starts. What? What jumps out to you as as the game tips off and gets going. 

Speaker 2: 8:33

I mean I think that what jumped off right away was that Thomas got three fouls and that was a pretty big part of IU's basketball team, especially because Gilligan was so good. I mean it took away some of the athletic ability. I mean I came in and he played great right, like I mean, obviously it was a step down but he still held his own. 

Speaker 6: 8:55

And it's going to go against Thomas. That's two fouls on Thomas. Down away from the ball. Dick Paparl, a tough official, comes in here and whistles two quick ones. 

Speaker 4: 9:04

Notice how Bob Knight kept his cool there. Now that's an off. Two fouls away from the ball been called right there, thomas, away from the ball. Completely Can't believe it's trying to set the screens inside. 

Speaker 6: 9:18

Thomas puts it down, comes to the glass, scored the field goal and Thomas is third personal foul, offensive foul, field goal and Steve Isle becomes the man of the moment for Indiana. 

Speaker 2: 9:29

I was kind of surprised that how easy that IU kind of got through the press at the beginning and how they kind of went away from it, because that was kind of one of their identities for the year, you know, v, when they average like nine steals a game, you know. But in the bigger picture maybe it was a blessing that he got three fouls right, maybe because he he dribbled the ball a lot, yeah. And then the same thing goes for we'll talk about it later, I don't want to get into it yet. 

Speaker 1: 9:57

You know like. 

Speaker 2: 9:59

I thought that the biggest thing from this game that I thought was is, you know, hillman in the second half, when he came in, and how he just played smart basketball. Right, he might not have been the best athlete in the game by far, but he was smart. And this game, like they couldn't afford the mistakes, because if you made a mistake, you and LV was just going to burn you right Because they were so fast, so that's what they wanted to do. I felt like, you know, smart is a really good basketball player, but he gambles more you know to where. Hillman was just going to do what he needed to do and he didn't care if he was the guy, he just was good. He was just happy to be out there and do whatever was asked of him, right? 

Speaker 1: 10:43

Oh no, I think that there is something to be said for that game manager, that that person who is willing to control the game a little bit rather than fall into some things Like again, part of what made you and LV so special is that everybody on the team scored. And one of the ways that I, you, won this game is by limiting it just to Gilliam and Freddie Banks. That's like the only guys who really went off in this game were those two guys Bass Knight, all their other players, you know, just did had poor shooting performances or didn't really score at all. You know the Wade had a ton of assists in this game but he didn't score at all. And I think that you know sometimes, like coming in and controlling a piece of the game and controlling where the basketball goes are, like you said, not not limiting those turnovers so that the guys who score are the other guys that have to create the shot for themselves. And it's just a little bit harder than if it's a steal and a fast break and a layup and gets everybody kind of juiced on that. 

Speaker 3: 11:42

Those were two dimensional arm and Gilliam and Freddie Banks, and that was it. Gilliam fought through the inside for 32 points and Banks had a game high 38. He hit 10 three pointers a new tournament record. 

Speaker 2: 11:54

And I thought that another thing that I did really good in this game was is they gave Wade room to shoot, which it really kind of it helped them with. I thought it helped them, in my opinion, and keeping all for more fresh, because he was just sitting back there. Besides having to run around and guard him, you know, like that's time he got a rest, because he doesn't stop moving on offense, right. So, you know, I think Wade probably should have been more aggressive and maybe tacked him, and if you go downhill and the guys just sitting there, you're going to have the advantage, right. Yeah, you know, to a certain point, you know. So I thought that that was the big thing that I, you did too. I mean, we'll talk about the rest of the guys, but the two guys from you, you know they were pretty good though Amazing. 

Speaker 1: 12:40

I mean over over 30 each and just shot shot the heck out of it. So let's, we can get to a little bit of that. In what age the best? So these are the things that would still look amazing if we were watching the game today. Obviously, the three point shot is around. I mean this looks like a modern basketball game, like if you, if you could like somehow retro fit it into the. You know the quality of the video looking better, then you wouldn't know that this was played, you know, 30 plus years ago. You know, just looks fantastic. Lots of threes up and down. 

Speaker 3: 13:12

Steve offered hitting shot after shot after shot. 

Speaker 1: 13:17

High level. I mean for college basketball. This is an excellent, extremely high level of basketball. Like they hit a ton of shots. The guys are are playing hard. Physical defense great coaches. I mean this is got everything you'd want in a game. 

Speaker 2: 13:31

Oh yeah, it's definitely an instant classic right Like I, unlv, the way they played in this game, I mean it. It is modern basketball. Like I, you get they shot, they shot threes, but nothing of the as many as UNLV did. I mean, what did banks end up with? Eight, nine, 10, threes. 

Speaker 1: 13:51

Like threes. 

Speaker 2: 13:52

Yeah, I mean it's just. And the shots, the level of difficulty on some of these shots, yeah, I mean, go up with oh wow, like fading, fading into the corner, fading into the corner. 

Speaker 1: 14:03

When he said he said this goes back to your helmet thing when we were interviewing Freddie. He's like, oh they, they couldn't guard, they couldn't guard me Well my shooting was tremendous, my shot to ball. 

Speaker 5: 14:14

I really shot the bottom I you know it was no question. Everyone was in in my face and I would just shoot an over and I was getting fouled. But you know the ref didn't really protect me as much as he protects Steve. But you know Steve was a great player. 

Speaker 1: 14:27

But again, I think that people, people forget, like that that can again like take away from the rest of the team maybe a little bit, I don't know. You know it's it's hard down this far in retrospect, but one thing you could think about is, like, you know, when you're that on fire, sometimes you have to be able to step back and get your, get another teammate a shot or a basket. Just keep them energized and engaged, even if you're hitting every shot, cause there's just something about like touching the ball yourself and seeing it go in the basket. That helps you to, you know, stay energized and engaged. And so sometimes it's like that recognition and that's so hard. That's almost like a coaching thing where the coach needed to needs to like, hey, get Jarvis a backdoor cut for a dunk or you know, like something to get the other guys involved, cause it just, it just never happened in this game. 

Speaker 2: 15:20

No, it didn't, and I think part of that, though, was just the game plan that IU came in on. I mean, they, they were gonna double team Gilliam, make it really hard on him, which, yeah, he still is, still was phenomenal. 

Speaker 6: 15:43

You're in the first half. 

Speaker 4: 15:45

Gilliam, known as the hammer, got his nickname from spoon James. I'd like to get a nickname from a guy called spoon. That's scary. 

Speaker 2: 15:54

And then they left off Wade and really I don't think the banks really had a whole lot of options, like normally it was because they were starting to. 

Speaker 1: 16:01

They needed shots right, well, he's a score. I mean it could have been way, he could have been Wade's responsibility. 

Speaker 2: 16:06

Yeah, I don't know if it took away from the rest of team. I would just say that some of the other players Could have made a couple plays. It would have really opened up the middle for Gilliam and that would have been that much harder. Right For sure, yeah. 

Speaker 1: 16:19

Freddie's stat line two for four from two, point range ten of nineteen from three. I mean, just think about that 19 threes. 

Speaker 2: 16:25

He shot in 87 like I had to be the most threes in any game. Right, that's wild. 

Speaker 1: 16:31

Well, you know, all offered two for four only in this game, so it kind of goes, kind of goes to your point. And, by the way, those are those two were the only Two that IU took for the whole game. 

Speaker 2: 16:42

Yeah, exactly that's what I was saying. Like IU still was in the transition of Converting into the new style, like they did a little bit more. But UNLV was all in, like they. Just if you think about her, how hard would it be to be in college and be. You say you're a fourth-year senior and there wasn't a three-point line and you're used to playing defense a certain way and all of a sudden it just changes. A three-point line comes out. This team's sprinting down the floor and every, every year you've been used to going back, you know to get into position. And these guys are pulling up for three, like you're like. Well, our first thing was always you took. You told us to get down here, get a position. You know what I mean. Cuz, like have you get preached for three years about you? Better be in your spot. And then all of a sudden, I know I want you in that spot. I want you in that spot. You know you're gonna have some miscues right. 

Speaker 1: 17:30

Yeah, I will say that Hillman brought something up that I do think's a valid point, even today too, that IU does hit on them and they always search for high quality shots and they always looked for opportunities to get fouled and go to the free throw line. 

Speaker 6: 17:47

Really knows how to operate an offense, sitting out there at the key, finding the open man and getting open himself. Here's Hillman coming down against the full court, pressure against the ball into Garrett's hands and then positions himself for the offensive rebound. And here's all for A two, and night is furious. They're calling it a two. They say that his foot was on the line. 

Speaker 4: 18:10

Good call by the ref. But again, brent Hillman how many times has he been there today? Put a carrot. Since the double team, he goes to the glass. What we're seeing right now at clinic half court offense by Indiana. They're taking great shots, great passing. 

Speaker 1: 18:27

Which is another really efficient way to score. And, and sure enough, alfred, even though he only had the two threes, he shot 13 free throws and hit 11 out of 13 for 86, 85, 86 percent there. So you know that is also a super efficient way to get points on on the board. If you're not gonna be hitting threes, get great shots, get fouled. Get fouled a bunch. 

Speaker 2: 18:49

Well, I guess this is this is an analogy for me you remember when the Suns had Steve Nash and they could hit all their threes? Yeah, you know like, yeah, it worked until they got in the playoffs, and then better defensive teams and then they Usually fizzled out right. So I mean you could probably compare that to this UNLV team. Right, like I, you did the things that were Smarter, right and more efficient more often, I guess you could say, where the other ones was more of a bigger reward, also a less return. Right, like if they're hitting threes and they're running and making steals and stuff, they look amazing. Right, if you slow it down, they take away a couple of the players and everyone's aren't as efficient. 

Speaker 1: 19:33

It's so hard because these one and done tournaments right. They mean you could it's. It's a little even dissimilar to the NBA, because it's like they're 37 and 2, so it worked 37 times. It didn't work two times, like who's right you know, like it and then a couple years later it works and they went. You know they win the, so it's some some of it in it. The NCAA is just is just luck. But I do think I want to pivot to night Night's choice here to run with them, because he could have like taken the air out of the ball. I mean it's 45, there is a shot clock, 45, second shot clock they don't use that very often in this game. Like they're, they're running with them. You know they win the game 97, 93, so that IU putting up 97 points is a Big number for them. So I just I wonder what you thought about like that approach, because he definitely Thought that out. Do you think it tied back into the year before losing to Cleveland State? Like the willingness to Adapt or take a? 

Speaker 2: 20:29

take a big risk, I would say this I thought that the end of the game right there was I remember how many minutes left, but we had a pretty good lead and then we tried to stall it right, and then we ended up turn the ball over, they hit a three. We ended up trying to stall it again. They turn it over, they get an N1. All of a sudden it's like 12 points to six points and then they get right back in the game for a little bit right there. So I think that just proves that nights we're gonna run with them made sense, right? Cuz I think that they were just, they were incredible athlete. 

Speaker 6: 21:00

Smart was coming inside a weight and grew the first foul on Vegas. 

Speaker 4: 21:06

Wade normally can outrun anybody with the ball, but smarts one of the best athletes in college basketball. 

Speaker 6: 21:11

Then I can you believe that we've got six junior college graduates out here. Starting now with Vegas, we know what in the world is going on. 

Speaker 2: 21:25

So if you slowed it down, they were fast enough to make it really hard on you in half court. So maybe it's better to make them think about it and basically do what they do to enter. People try to use our Guys run out. Maybe they make a mistake, you get a dunk, maybe you get an open shot. All those points matter in the course of a game. Right, if you get an easy bucket here or there, all right, let's go to the coaching moment. 

Speaker 1: 21:45

So I thought I thought night staying calm I had the Announcers reference that because again there all gets his third foul and you thought, boy, that's a real moment there for coach night to lose his mind. But he was super focused and super calm on the bench. No, no, none of those facial expressions that people like grew to to recognize or or the hysterics. He's just kind of sitting there and then, of course, real or real early Tark breaks out the towel. It's it's not not long into the game and he is sucking on that wet towel, wet towel on the sideline. 

Speaker 6: 22:20

That's wild. And we reached a point where the shark says I gotta get the towel out. 

Speaker 4: 22:26

He got it out early today. I watched him nibble and over there about a minute ago. 

Speaker 7: 22:34

Indiana moved into a five-point lead when Keith smart drove, spun, jumped and connected and the long-time Unlv coach, jerry Tarkinian, turned to his trademark his towel For consolation. It didn't help, I was driving layup lifted Indiana's lead to seven. 

Speaker 2: 22:53

Yeah, he likes that towel in the in the best of covid. 

Speaker 1: 22:56

Could they, could he have gotten away with that? Would he have been it had to put that away? 

Speaker 2: 23:00

I said they probably would have made him replace that every quarter. Yeah, and I thought it was funny that the announcers said well, it's normally a white towel, but today it's got some decals or it's got some stuff on it, so maybe he should go back to the plain white. 

Speaker 5: 23:12

That's what works for. 

Speaker 2: 23:14

I thought that was funny. But no, coach night it was crazy watching him and him just staying cool. That's second foul that Thomas got on him, like I didn't think it was a foul. So you know he was worked up about that. And the third one I mean, one of your best players is already out in the first half. But maybe that was his strategy. Maybe he thought if he got on him in that game maybe they buck a little bit, that maybe that's all it takes for you, no V to go on a big run. Yeah, you know, maybe that was the strategy. Like it's not gonna help yell at him because if they, you put him under more pressure. Maybe it goes the opposite way. We even to stay smart. 

Speaker 1: 23:44

It definitely seemed, though, that, again along that theme of night, being able to adapt in this game to the, to the situation, again, like you said, in a up-and-down game, to recognize like, hey, if we're gonna play fast and At this pace, there's gonna be some runs, like there's gonna be enough possessions to get in and get out of the game and I don't have to micromanage it as much. It's got to be like a mindset thing that he brought, brought into that that moment. Would you think of UNLV having to run after half-time to out of the tunnel? That was pretty wild, right. Like would that ever happen today? Like they have to, just to set it up for the people listening. They, they, I guess, got Freddy, as Freddy tells it. They got notified late that the Second half was about to start and so they have to sprint from the locker room in this, in this huge dome, and it's like all the way across the arena and you can even see Tark running, you know, like awkwardly for a long distance to get there. And I guess, night the announcers are saying like he's trying to get them to start the game and be like, hey, let's get this thing rolling. Like not waiting to get there. 

Speaker 6: 24:47

Seconds left towards the start of the second half, the Vegas players just finally now on the floor. They're not even getting an opportunity to warm up. That's very unusual. 

Speaker 4: 24:56

It really is. I wonder if somebody forgot on Jerry's part to let his club know what the time was left on the clock. You can't come out without getting a little bit warm and I'll be shocked if they could come out. Freddy Banks example Never even touched the ball. They may start the second half without Jerry on the bench. 

Speaker 2: 25:11

Does that fall in the same line of thinking that we used earlier when we said that I, you came in with the prepared, ready to go and you know, view was kind of loose loose with their plan because I mean, there is no way you should come out of the tunnel in the final? 

Speaker 1: 25:28

game. Yeah late. I mean I can't imagine I talk about night mad. How mad would he have been if he hadn't got. He probably was to a chair. I. 

Speaker 5: 25:37

Was something bad would have happened to the person that was telling right like. 

Speaker 2: 25:41

I don't, I don't know that the Communication doesn't get made that. 

Speaker 1: 25:45

Hey, we got five minutes wild five minutes, ten minutes I mean wild, the wild that they would put it on TV to like. They're just like wow, that's a huge mistake, let's go ahead. And they wouldn't do it now. 

Speaker 2: 25:55

They'd like fill, let's go back to break. And like, oh, we had a spill on the floor, so we had a wait to start it to later like they would have made up some kind of excuse. Oh, technical difficulties on the shot clock, so we had a wait 100%. 

Speaker 1: 26:09

What were your plays the game? What were your favorite plays the game? 

Speaker 2: 26:14

The plays. I think that Hillman had some pretty big plays down the stretch. I mean the one he got off, he got the rebound and took it back out and gave it to offer for the three. That was a huge play. I mean, yeah, it doesn't really come up in the stat sheet for him, but I mean it was an effort play. Yeah, like he boxed out, he got the rebound and he was able to find him and that was really a crucial part of the game. Like they were coming back. I mean obviously Freddie banks hitting. I mean, like we said earlier, I mean some of those shots were just like wild. 

Speaker 6: 26:41

Yeah, they want anything the way it's going. There's a three from banks With the threes and bass night knocks the ball out of bounds and you've got to be impressed with the quickness that Vegas has shown Indiana early in this game. 

Speaker 4: 26:55

But they're not only quick, they've got size with quickness and that's really hard to handle. 

Speaker 1: 27:00

He was a huge uncount. Like he came to play, he was. He was unconscious. 

Speaker 2: 27:03

I mean I would. I should have one looked it up to see he might have been listening what the? Record was for Three-point shots in a, you know it's probably a game because I mean this was 87, so I mean it can't be much more than 10. 

Speaker 1: 27:15

I can't, I wouldn't imagine so can't, can't imagine he does Dougie fresh tunes that he was listening to. It must have really got him ready. Must have really got him ready for that. 

Speaker 2: 27:24

I better find that out and I better listen. That for you, that's right. 

Speaker 1: 27:27

You go from next time for your next game listen to. Dougie fresh. All right, let's get the long shot moment. What was the? What was the shot for you that defined the, the game from from distance? Because there was a bunch to choose from, did you? But did you have one that you that stood out? The offered, and one was pretty big. 

Speaker 6: 27:47

Clinic by Graham right there winds up in Callaway's hands. Now it's Steve's three, that's. 

Speaker 2: 28:01

There were so many that banks hit. I know it's that's for the header team, but he hit so many tough shots, I mean full sprint, just pulling up for three on the side like, even like fading a little bit to the his body sideways and hitting it. I didn't know that shot. Shots like that in 87 tell you the truth. It's like not saying they weren't great shooters or anything. Back then it was more fundamental you go straight up, you go straight down, so that would buy them. There's really not one, I guess he's still number two all time. 

Speaker 1: 28:27

There's Jeff Jeff Fryer, loyal Ameri mount 1990 hit 11. 

Speaker 2: 28:32

Yeah. So I mean that just tells you how crazy. I mean it's 87, like the first year. The three point line, I mean it's unbelievable what he did and you know what? Nobody really talks about it that much because they lost. 

Speaker 1: 28:45

Well, they talked about. It was funny because I study in this game, of course, during this year Wade's a record for assist just got broken by the Kansas State player in that in that game. So pretty interesting, he had the record for assist in this game. 

Speaker 5: 28:57

So this is quite a record-breaking it was. 

Speaker 1: 28:59

It was monumental. All right by yourself, take here, so we're gonna go. We'll go back and back and forth on this one. Here here's mine. The loss to Cleveland State, dear before, was key to IU winning the championship. Because I so I see that I really am framing this up like I believe that them losing that game Night, failing to make the adjustments in that game, you know the way that it haunted him like propelled him to make this bold decision To take, to take out you know V, who I think was the best team in in the tournament once they beat them. Of course it's not given against Syracuse by by any means, but they seemed sort of destined. You know, after that, after you take, take out the best team. 

Speaker 2: 29:38

I think that's part of it. I think the trip that we talked about before I think that's part of it too, because I feel like the guys that came off the bench that were willing to play their role to a tee and not try to be a Superstar, they really just did what they had to do for IU to win. They didn't care if they shot I think that has to do with chemistry was better. They were bonded together and they wanted to win for everybody. At this level of basketball there's you see it rarely that a player comes in at a game like this and they don't care if they shoot or anything. All they care about is playing good defense, passing the ball, setting their players up. That's pretty rare that they're not gonna try to make it their moment relationships. 

Speaker 1: 30:16

I definitely, you know, at times, I think, maybe underestimated how important that team continuity is. Because you see a lot of talent, you want to think like, oh, that's, that's gonna win out. You do need a certain level of talent, but you know, talking to Freddie and talking to Joe Hillman, they talk about the first. One of the first things they hit on isn't like, oh, how good Steve Alfred was, like, how good a teammate he was. Freddie talked about like how close him and Wade were and you know and like and how important it was when Smart and Dean Garrett came in and they fit into the culture. Like they don't hit on like these guys are good. It's like of course they're good. They wouldn't be on this team if they weren't really good. Once you hit that, then you need that, that person who is willing to sacrifice some part of their game because that's the weird thing like all these guys were Absolute uber superstars in high school. So at some point you know you get to a certain level and you have to decide how can I contribute to this particular team? And Sometimes, what am I gonna sacrifice to Be on the court in those moments gonna happen and gonna take some sacrifice at times and it's overlooking your ego. 

Speaker 2: 31:21

You're thinking I should be on the court. You played basketball for a long time. You're sitting on the sideline and say that a player is in there and he's not playing his best game. That's just a thought you're gonna have no matter what. Like what, if I was in there, I could do better than this guy. I'll play hard defense. That guy, like I, would make that shot. I mean, it's always easier to do on the bench. Yeah, you know what I mean. Like you could always convince yourself. 

Speaker 1: 31:40

If you're just watching it on TV exactly. 

Speaker 2: 31:43

Because you hear a lot of people say, well, if I, if I was there, I could beat that guy. No, no you couldn't. Maybe in your head, but you're been sitting like couch for 30 years. 

Speaker 1: 31:55

Let's get to our final category, the big picture context. What did this game mean for the weekend and heading into the national championship? So, after they win this, what, what do you think? What are you thinking about? I, you. 

Speaker 2: 32:08

I think that it's just set in the stage Right, like I mean, you had one of the best games at college basketball, played the excitement of the fans. You're playing Syracuse, which is an unbelievable team. They got NBA players and their team to really good players. I mean, I think it just sets it up for a really exciting National championship game that you know, after this game you're probably thinking, man, it's gonna be a high scoring, fast-paced, it's gonna be right. 

Speaker 1: 32:34

Yeah, for sure, for sure, and you and and unknown too, I think that now it's. Now it's like we've got one, we've got one more, but it's, it is about bringing it back around and keeping focused. And Hillman said that that too, like he was the one like telling Alford to hey, we got one more to win. And Alfred's like hey, we know, we need to take a moment to celebrate because the journey you can miss, I think, part enjoying part of the journey sometimes and and really enjoying, like the, the chant, the chance to play and need this level of games and that, that type of atmosphere, the biggest crowd in NCAA history, I mean that's, that's neat and your whole family's there like just appreciating. That is pretty. You know, had to be a pretty special. 

Speaker 2: 33:13

Well, most good coaches that you hear, like after they win a game like this, they say, well, we're gonna take the next six, eight hours To celebrate, and then we get up in the morning or focused on the next guy to it yeah cuz, I mean, you have to, like you said, like how exciting would have been to be in this, even in the arena, say that we were just we're playing the game, say that we were sitting down low and watching this game, like easy. It would have been so jacked up. Oh my god like I mean it had been insane right. 

Speaker 1: 33:39

New Orleans right after that. 

Speaker 5: 33:41

I'm going to bed. Yeah, get ready for Monday. 

Speaker 1: 33:45

What did this mean for coach night's career, for IU as a whole? Because it's crazy to think that this is it. This is the. This is the last championship he wins, the last championship IU wins. Is this a good capstone to to his championship run? 

Speaker 2: 33:58

I think that this Solidified him as one of the best coaches in history. I think he needed it because afterwards, I mean he did, he went to oh, he went one more final four and he had like four more sweet 16. So it isn't like he didn't do anything. 

Speaker 1: 34:13

They had opportunities, they got a champion. 

Speaker 2: 34:15

They got unlucky, especially with the Cowbert chain and they won. 

Speaker 1: 34:18

Anderson one. 

Speaker 2: 34:19

I believe they won a couple big tens after this. You know so it's hard. 

Speaker 1: 34:23

Yeah. 

Speaker 2: 34:23

I mean what I mean it is it's hard to keep a level where you're gonna win. This mean that's. I mean, look at, like coach K or any of the great coaches, right, I mean Dean Smith for years. Yeah they go through Lowe's. 

Speaker 1: 34:35

I mean coach Thompson only won one, which is crazy to think about because they were there three straight. 

Speaker 2: 34:40

Yeah, I mean how many coaches would have loved to won three national championships and won 11 big 10 titles? 

Speaker 5: 34:46

all of them Exactly, so I mean. 

Speaker 2: 34:48

I wouldn't say that this was the end of it, but I think this, this definitely was the peak of the mountain right worst. 

Speaker 1: 34:55

Is this the worst IU championship team? The 76 the best? Obviously, I mean between 81 and this one. 

Speaker 2: 35:03

I'll put this way any, any, any national championship is pretty good. This is the 30 year old guy on the couch saying I go out there and play with them like Steve Offord was pretty good yeah you know, I think that it's so hard. I mean they were the 34 and I'm over like the worst national championship. 

Speaker 1: 35:24

Amazing teams. They're all amazing. 

Speaker 2: 35:26

Obviously I'm not saying that they're so you're saying you're taking a Isaiah over offered. Think so, you think so. I mean, I don't know I was that's too. That's too hard of a. It's a hard question. It's a hard question for sure. I wasn't prepared for that question. 

Speaker 1: 35:37

I know I thought through that you told me on the bus what about you? Yeah, no, I'm taking. I'm taking a 76 first, 81, then 87, but close, I just think that the 87 Needed, I don't. I just think. I say, you know, isaiah Thomas, I think it comes down to that, like one, one V one player, like I Would. Isaiah Thomas is just got a bit more of a another gear than than Alfred, even though he's amazing. I just think that Thomas. 

Speaker 2: 36:03

I. They were different types of players. 

Speaker 1: 36:05

They were, but like sure, but just like an unstuck, like a force of nature type thing. 

Speaker 2: 36:09

How I say a Thomas, how would it have been if he would have posed as a and he could have been to guard? Oh, my god, you know what I mean like because really I offered in this game. He's like a mini curry, not like he can shoot like her, but I mean he could shoot good, but like running around screens and everything else. 

Speaker 1: 36:24

So imagine if he had a championship game. 

Speaker 2: 36:26

We'll talk about that he had a point guard like Isaiah to get penetrating and getting him open shots. Yes he didn't get a lot of open shots. He worked for about every shot he got in this game for sure, for sure. 

Speaker 1: 36:36

All right, last last question We'll get out of here. Would this game be better with Bill Walton announcing We've got the game of the millennium tonight. 

Speaker 4: 36:46

It doesn't get. 

Speaker 7: 36:48

Learn to love your job. Love pressure to go. Oh, barack Obama, I don't think he's gonna coach so you keep saying that. But why? Why are you so negative? Why do you just turn down? Party on? It's a wonderful day, it's Oregon, the Sun was out, come on. 

Speaker 2: 37:05

I'm gonna say 100%. 

Speaker 1: 37:09

Oh my gosh, you zagged on that one. I love it I. 

Speaker 2: 37:12

Just, I just felt like there was some really exciting moments in this game, like there was a huge block. I can't remember which one it was, but there was a huge block and they were just like and he knocks it out of bounds. I'm like I was waiting for excitement. 

Speaker 1: 37:24

They come through the team through the TV right, I like it bill would have been losing his oh my god he touched the ceiling. 

Speaker 2: 37:30

When he does, you know like he would have been something like? I just think that they were both really good announcers. Yeah, they know their stuff. Yeah but there just wasn't enough celebration towards big moments. Yeah right, like it was more mellow tone. Man, he really shot that deep. Or you know, like you make, oh my god, he shot that from outer space. You know something. You know of that nature. Like you just didn't get that, I didn't get that now I could. 

Speaker 1: 37:52

I can get down with it. I'm gonna stick with your answer and go with bill. Bill Walton would have been better. It would have been hilarious. I don't know, I don't know. Final four, Although I think I forget now that there were. I watched a recent uh Bulls game where he was doing the announcing and there were games where he could reign it in somewhat, I think. Now I think of like him. He's on the sideline in his tie dye t-shirt, Like he did show up to some games in the nineties and like suits. So it's it's possible that he could have reeled in just a little bit and still let us have a little more fun. But I think that you're right, he could have brought a little more excitement. 

Speaker 2: 38:25

I mean, what do you think he would have been doing when banks was hitting all these? 

Speaker 1: 38:27

trees, oh my God. 

Speaker 2: 38:28

He'd be like oh my God, who is this guy? Did he come from outer space Like yeah? 

Speaker 1: 38:32

I thought about. I thought about them coming in from the locker Boy. He would have been all over, all over that. 

Speaker 6: 38:37

Were they drinking back? 

Speaker 1: 38:37

there. 

Speaker 2: 38:38

What was going on? 

Speaker 1: 38:38

I should have gone back there with my bicycle and picked them up. It picked them up Exactly. Oh my gosh, sure, sure. 

Speaker 6: 39:03

And it was traveled, that journey to the championship. Dean, garrett, dean, your thoughts about this victory. 

Speaker 5: 39:08

Hey, this is a great victory. Everybody thought we weren't going to win it. People were putting us down by two points and say Gillian was going to do this, you and I were too fast for it. But hey, this shows, you know, we're a strong team ourselves and we, you know, we're not quitters at all. Bob. 

Speaker 4: 39:21

I thought you got an incredible game off the bench today. Two guys came in and really used their heads to set a lot of things up. 

Speaker 8: 39:26

Steve, Isle and Hillman. Well, Hillman and Isle played very well for us in the regional and have played very well for us in a lot of situations all year. That's what we recruited them for to play very well for us. 

Speaker 4: 39:39

It was a thinking man's game in regard to substitution patterns and the way that you played and you still understood it. I think I did and I thought you really did a super job taking advantage when they went with a smaller club. Let you stay with Hillman for a long time. 

Speaker 8: 39:51

Well, what happened? There had to be a lot of changes made. It was really a hot day and I thought the UNLV kids were just absolutely plastered they're jerseys. I thought our kids did a heck of a job hanging in in the last 10 minutes. I thought we might just get worn down and be worn out in the last 10 minutes. 

Speaker 6: 40:10

Ian, let's go to James. 

Speaker 5: 40:11

All right, brent, thank you very much. Coach Tarkin and your had your team in the locker room a very long time and half time. What did you see and what Indiana was doing that you were trying to counter? Well, you know, the first half I didn't think that we played as hard as we could defensively and secondly, we didn't play well and yet we were only six down. So we kept thinking that we could come back. We just felt there was a few things. We just had to toughen up our defense and get more intense and get up in the passing lines, which we didn't do. We were in a, our defense was tougher about 10 seconds and then it broke down and we didn't sustain it. Today, I you know we came to a big game like this and we weren't as quick as we'd been earlier in the year, and you know it's it's. It's a painful loss, but I'm so proud of this team that you know I just it hurts a lot. I'm extremely proud of our ball club and obviously a tough loss, but you wore number one very well, Coach. 

Speaker 9: 41:00

Thank you very much Thank you. 

Speaker 7: 41:01

To the delight of the Indiana cheerleaders, the Hoosiers made more than 65% of their shots in the second half. Rick Callaway made three out of four. Only the long range bombing of banks, who scored on 10 of 19 three-point attempts and collected 38 points, kept UNLV in contention With less than two minutes to play and Indiana, up by seven banks missed. But Armand Gilliam took the rebound and scored, and the running rebels were still alive. They drew within four points when banks sank another three-pointer with a minute and 11 seconds to play. But then UNLV missed its next five shots and when Steve Ile turned a driving layup into a three-point play with only 13 seconds to go, indiana had a nine-point lead. The game in hand, the final margin was four points. A disappointment, naturally, for Tarcanian. A big victory for Knight, shooting for his third NCAA title, and for Indiana's fifth. It would be his Hoosiers against the Orange one of Syracuse in the 49th annual National Collegiate Basketball Championship. 

Speaker 1: 42:28

I hope you enjoyed our game recap. Keep listening for my interview with Joe Hillman, sixth man on this Indiana team. He's got amazing insights about what brought the team together and the court side and on the court view of this game. Well, I want to talk about, before we get into kind of the setting the scene in New Orleans, the kind of origin story, because you're hinting at some of that stuff as we're talking about this year's IU team. But I watched the big trip and then I watched kind of the. I watched the Cleveland State game leading up to this and I was thinking about origin stories for teams and you guys got in this era get more of a chance to build that camaraderie. But you know, I think it's a misnomer that teams don't get that. There are some players that come for a year and don't, but I think by and large, even this year's IU team has a lot of guys that have been there for a long time. So I just wondered about like the origin story and what you thought about like building. You know the building of this 1987 team. You know there's a lot of moving pieces. Was there one thing that catalyzed it or do you think it's just kind of everything coming together with the. You know the transfers in the big trip when you guys are younger. 

Speaker 9: 43:40

You know, the big trip gets a lot of. I think everybody talks about that. I'm not so sure. I'd never bought in that because I thought we had a pretty good year the next year. I think the bigger thing was Dean and Keith coming to the team, and not only their ability and beyond their ability. They bought in and they said, okay, what do we need to do to play? Where do we need to go? Now, dean was, dean was a little easier because you know, hey, he was just kind of a back to the basket kind of grind. Keith was way more, you know, let's get it up down and he, you know, kind of had to be thrown back a little bit and get into the system. But those two guys buying into what we were trying to do, I think is a way bigger thing than the trip. I think a year prior we actually saw a flip of Darrell Thomas, because Darrell went from being kind of a, you know, a good player and just kind of a role guy to a we got to have you. And the year prior he ended up having to play center, got hurt, played through being hurt and he realized, hey, I can be a man, you know. And then and then now he's a senior and Darrell was such a good college basketball player, I mean, and people underestimate how good he was. He scored for us, he defended the best post player and he rebounded for us. I mean, darrell was a great college basketball player and you know, now Steve comes back easy or stronger and I mean we, just we just we had a core that kind of knew what to do and now adding two guys that athletically and size wise helped us, and then and again them buying into what we were trying to do, they don't get enough credit for that. Yeah, how did you guys? How did you guys bring them in? 

Speaker 1: 45:32

Because I think, as teammates, because I think that that that goes maybe under the radar a little bit. Unlv it gets the kind of Juco moniker that you know tarks out there looking for guys from Juco, but these guys were junior college transfers and I'm sure there's, like some, you know, if I'm just putting myself in like your shoes or one of the player shoes, like these guys coming in from the outside, some of my playing time could potentially go to them and just kind of sizing them up and figuring out how you guys fit as teammates. 

Speaker 9: 45:58

You know, aaron, nobody don't worry about that, indiana, because under Bob Knight, if you, if you, if you played well in practice, you were going to play. Nobody could ever go to coach nine and say I'm getting screwed here by playing, Because every single day out there you had a chance to do it. Our practices were brutal. I mean, we had seven guys on red and eight guys on white and the seven guys that were in red at the end of the week or at the four game time where the guys are going to play, and the hardest position, by far the hardest position in Indiana, was the seventh guy, or six guy, because you were replaceable, and those guys that were eight, nine, on the road they were fouling, they were grabbing in practice to get their jersey switched and you know. So nobody can complain about that under a Bob Knight's suit. Now, the year prior we were really undersized, had a lot of those guys red shirting. So when we had the undersized, bringing in Dean, who was kind of a late bloomer, was really a no brainer. All of a sudden we got a six, 10 guy, you know, and so that, and Dean came from a Dean, dean's family's military. I mean Dean's very disciplined. He played for a guy in junior college. That was a tough guy. That got after him and that was a tough guy and I don't think the transition was as hard for Dean, just because big guys, big guys, you don't have to see the court as much as a guard. So it's a much different thing for Keith and Keith did a really nice job. His athletic ability allowed him to do some things that we just hadn't had and then he kind of fit in and really what kind of got Keith going in that last couple of games was just that we kind of went to a three guard and he got to float around and not have to handle the ball, just catching the ball and the move and going to, you know, getting it going to the basket with angles and instead of having to beat everybody off the dribble type of deal. So I don't know, I mean that. That to me. You know, the other trip was the trip was good because we had a lot of, we had a. We really had a terrible year, that 84, 85 year, and so now we go on. The trip started off horrible and then it got. It got pretty darn good and we and we started playing really well at the end and then the following season we were pretty damn good. You know, everybody remembers people three, but we were 14 and three tied with Michigan going up to Michigan and we got absolutely drilled up in Michigan which happened. Lost by 30 and coach went crazy. He was. He was really mad and upset that we didn't compete for the big 10 and that. And we had a terrible week practice leading up to Cleveland State Horrible. And I remember telling people we're going to hear asked me by Cleveland State, oh no way. And I said I'm telling you this is a terrible matchup for us because they are small, like us. Darrell was our biggest guy at six, seven. Their center was six, six. They press. We are a terrible matchup for them and we that week of practice was so bad we couldn't. The red shirts and team on the white jerseys were killing the red. They couldn't break the press. We started off pressing with six guys just to make it harder. They couldn't do anything. Finally went to five and it was just. It was just a bad week of practice and coach was had us on edge a little bit from just drilling us from losing and not competing up in Michigan, I mean we lost 80 to 50 up there. And he was mad about the fact that we just didn't fight and scratch and claw. And then, in reverse though, we go to the UNLV the following year, and the biggest thing that stands out to me was our preparation for the UNLV game. 

Speaker 1: 49:34

Yeah, go into that, because you got this week leading up to this and, of course, the LSU game was close too Well the LSU game probably should have lost. Yeah, one point win there, so that's a classic tournament. 

Speaker 9: 49:45

We didn't play very well in the LSU game and but we scrapped and we hung in there and we made some plays at the end and you know. So that was on a Sunday. We come back Sunday night and got back pre-late because I think we played at 5.30 or something, maybe, maybe it was a five o'clock game. We didn't get back to 11, 11.30 on Sunday night. Get to the Bloomington Airport. There's probably 10,000 people, so everybody's telling us how great we are with all this. And I played a minute, made a really big play in the LSU game, got out of the break steal, laid it in, got fouled, and so the next day of practice, which is Monday you know we don't play until Saturday and we're thinking, all right, we're pretty tired. Well, it says get dressed, get taped, which meant we're going full blast on Monday. And you know we all expected maybe to say get dressed, get dressed, man, we're going to walk through some stuff. So get dressed, get taped, go through our normal routine. We go out, we're shooting around and coach says let's go in. So we go in and Felin's sitting there, he's got the stat sheet. He says Hillman, jesus, son, you scored three points in a minute. You think about, if you played 40 minutes you'd score 120. And I go well, tell the Dunsum fish to play me more. And coach walks around Hillman, there'll never be a date in Indiana when you play 40 minutes. Everybody laughed and giggled and we can't do anything. Right, you know, we're doing our normal just four, four lines and we do the three man weave we're doing and we get into just some drills and coach is going crazy. This is absolute fucking bullshit. If this is all the effort we're going to put in, then we might as well not even go down in New Orleans. You might as well even forget about. I got no interest. If you don't have any better effort wanting to go down and play 80 minutes, then forget it. Get the hell out of here. Gets us out. But, like you know, 15 minutes into the practice. So we go into practice. You know, we go in the locker room and Steve's like hey, come on, guys, come on, we got to go back out there. And coach is sitting in the middle of the court. So nope, nope, get the hell out of here. And when you guys are right, you let me know when you want to practice, but I don't want to see this anymore and the lights go out and suddenly home. 

Speaker 4: 51:59

Wow, amazing. 

Speaker 9: 52:02

So flash ahead, we come back on Tuesday, do our normal thing. We go and he says all right, here's the deal. I've just watched all this film that we've seen and here's the situation. We are getting rid of the four pass rule. We're going to go play Vegas and we're going to run up now with them. I do not want to play against them for 40 seconds, 45 seconds. They'll wear us out and we're going to lose. But they will give us wide open shots in the break and breaking their press and we're going to take the first good shot, every single possession. So we're all like holy God, are you kidding me? 

Speaker 1: 52:38

Did you think he was crazy Like saying that, like, that's such a change. 

Speaker 9: 52:41

He said have watched it. If we break the press and stop, they're going to smother us and they'll make it really hard for us to score. But if we break the press we will get layups and wide open shots. And so we go out and practice and we had a great practice. The coach came in and wrote up 80 minutes, two games. He said hey, here's the deal. We're going to New Orleans to win two games. You guys want to go down to New Orleans, like these other teams are going to go down there tonight, tomorrow, that's fine. You want to go out and find New Orleans, go do it when you graduate. We're going down to win two games, and if you don't want to go down there and win two games, then let's just stop right now. Great practice Wednesday. Great practice Thursday. We got to be down in New Orleans. I mean we're sharp, I mean he's pushing, he's clapping, I mean he's got an energy about. This is going to work. This is going to work. We got to be down in New Orleans at 1.30 for our mandatory shoot around. So we're going to practice at 9 o'clock in the morning and so we do our normal little routine warm up, go out, and now we're going to start practicing. Coach says, all right, red, bring it in Right, convert on misses and offer drills at three on the first possession. And Knight says let's go, we're ready to win a national championship. We go in shower, get on the bus and go down. Wow, amazing he's on the flight. But when all four drilled that three I mean I still get chills when I say that and he said we're ready to win a national championship, let's go I mean it was unbelievable. So we had a great week of practice and we had a great belief that what we were going to do against Vegas was going to work. Let us run up and down the floor with them. And nobody thought we were going to do it. If you watch the game again, you build me back or goes. I don't know what Bob Knight's doing. This is crazy. He's running up and down, because we did. We got wide open shots and a million lamps, if it's not for Freddie Banks going crazy in the last three minutes we beat them by 15. 

Speaker 1: 54:43

OK, I got to ask you one question, Rewindon. Were you guys talking to each other? Because I know after playing I like to recap things. Were you guys talking in the locker room, talking each other up? Like this is going to work, we can do this, or? 

Speaker 9: 54:54

we ever know because we always had a great belief in what we were doing. Anyways, I mean the one thing in Indiana that that group had and Knight instilled it, and probably in the 81 team, in the 75 and 76 and the 80 team, I mean the good he created and made it. You were more fearful for losing than you liked winning. You hate to lose more than you like to win. Ok, does that make sense? Oh yeah, because you just didn't want to go through all the shit and we had a great core that everybody knew. Hey, here are the guys, here's what we're going to do. If you get an opportunity to play, just contribute, just be a positive part of the game. Whether you play two minutes, one minute, doesn't matter. You don't have to be spectacular, because our other guys are going to do that, and everybody had an understanding of what your role was. The following year we had none of that. In my senior year that all came back again. Everybody knew their role and it was just amazing on how those teams that kind of have a good understanding of what you are. They just gel better than where you have a bunch of guys trying to do things that they probably shouldn't do and so, going into that, there was never any of that. Now, if we were playing bad, we had the capabilities of guys getting on each other and pushing each other a little bit and then sometimes you just didn't need to say stuff. Guys knew. But going into that, it was almost a relief of oh my gosh, he's going to let us do our thing here and he's taking the reins off. And then I think, once you got out there and we got into the flow against Vegas and you could see we was right, we were getting whatever we wanted. And the interesting thing that we did too in that game, which was really good not at the start, but somebody got into early foul trouble and I'll had to come in the game and I'll just start to bring the ball up against their press and they had a big guy guarding it. That was no problem. They were doing that ever Kicking over. And then when I came in they had a forward guard in me and we could just bring it up and so we eliminated a lot of their pressure by using a guy that was being guarded by a big guy. But then they would still do that stupid trap and whatever. I mean that game was a physical dream because of how fast it went up and down the court, but it was easy to get offensively it was easy. 

Speaker 1: 57:25

You guys had a flow. 

Speaker 9: 57:27

There wasn't it, but they didn't do a lot of holding and grabbing and whatever you used to play when, when you play a team like Illinois or whatever, they sat on you and they jumped screens and Vegas did none of that. 

Speaker 1: 57:41

What about offensively? Like, what did you notice when you were watching them coming back at you? They had some unbelievable, like you said, performances, like shooting. I mean they put up 35-3. I had to double check that before we came on. How many did? They make 35. They made 13 out of their 35-3s. Well, that was the thing. 

Speaker 9: 58:04

We knew they were going to jack up a bunch of shots and so our deal on that was, if we could contest some of those, we were going to get a lot of long rebounds and be able to go with it. Now they did not shoot the ball very well, but we took away banks early and then we let Wade shoot. Wade was like go ahead, hey, you're open because we want you open. And Gilliam was a tough matchup. 

Speaker 1: 58:26

He was tough. 

Speaker 9: 58:27

He was very good, that great mid-range jumper. But then there are other guys Graham wasn't a great shooter and Baz Knight wasn't a great shooter, and so we knew we could kind of sag in off some of those guys which now we're allowed to no help off of banks. And then like I said, the last two and a half minutes banks made probably four or five rebounds. I mean, I remember he makes the one right in front in the left corner, two of them back to back, one over me and then one over Isle. I'm like, what are you going to do? 

Speaker 1: 58:54

Yeah. 

Speaker 9: 58:57

And so then they missed a free throw, which or we got a long rebound on one of them and Isle got the dunk, and then that was game. I think they did a three at the buzzer. They did yeah, that's who it was. Yeah, yeah, I mean, again, we weren't. I mean there's no chance. We didn't think going into that game that we weren't going to win. Yeah, I mean I knew a lot of people were like oh my God, big is this? No, no chance. We I mean we thought we were the best team in the country. 

Speaker 1: 59:21

Did you notice when Tark started chewing on the towel? Because on TV they caught it so much easier to see some of these things. But I'm just curious about, like you know, from a player's perspective, the ebbs and flow of the game, because I think they I mean, you're right, they, you guys changed your style so much more than they did. So I just wondered, like what they must have been thinking or what you maybe picked up on from their players. Like, did they look? 

Speaker 9: 59:48

like wow, these guys are really tough Because you guys put up 53 in the first half. Tark was always nervous for me yeah, I know, and he recruited me on Eisenheiser. 

Speaker 1: 59:57

Yeah, I know, I remember he saying that, but they. 

Speaker 9: 1:00:00

No, I mean they didn't. They knew. They knew they were in for it. Once we got going, I don't think they thought they were going to come in and steam roll us. I think they thought we were going to slow it down or whatever. But I don't think they they didn't go into that game thinking, oh my God, indiana, we're going to drill these guys. They, they're no way. I mean, we'd only lost four games all year and we were. You know, we were pretty damn good. So, yeah, I mean it was. There weren't a lot of chatter out of the court. There weren't a lot of chatter in the Syracuse game either. So guys are just playing. 

Speaker 1: 1:00:32

What about? What about coaching moments like in the game then? So you mentioned kind of leading up to it, his, you know, the perspective taking and the ability to kind of shift your guys' perspective to like we're going to run and instill that confidence or that trust in you guys to to execute that game plan. But what about within the game adjustments? 

Speaker 9: 1:00:50

Well, we really didn't. We really didn't make any adjustments in that game because things were working offensively. They made some changes defensively, but but what was really what was working for us was was staying off of Wade and letting him shoot, but but then he got some. You know, when you're a guard guy it does make it a lot easier to pass. I mean you end up with a bunch of assist, but a lot of that was because guys were making shots but no, there really wasn't. It was a pretty positive deal. The whole time. There was never really anything. We got in a little bit of foul trouble, which always is kind of a nerve wracking deal. I think it was Daryl and Dean or Daryl and Coway got some early fouls and other guys came in and I think sometimes that always helps to get another guys in there that feel good. And then it was. I think he was just kind of monitoring, you know, minutes and play and keeping guys fresh and. But yeah, I don't remember anything specifically in that game at all, not as much as what I remember in the in the Syracuse stuff. I mean he, he was pretty calm that whole game. He may have marked in the ref here or there. But there was nothing, nothing negative with any players, like some games, like in the in the, in the Auburn game that that year I mean, we just laid an egg the first five or six minutes and he went crazy and he was ripping guys. You know everybody remembers that because that first six or eight minutes of the Auburn game we're now 12 or something and he was going crazy Just waking us up basically. But the Vegas game was was pretty much. It went kind of what I think he thought it was going to do. It can be a fast-paced game up and down. We're going to get a lot of shots. They were going to get buckets because they had guys that could break their own shot and and they had good players and you know, just it went according to what I think he thought his mind was going to happen. It can be a fast-paced game up and down. We're going to get a lot of shots. They were going to get buckets because they had guys that could break their own shot and and they had good players and you know, just, it went according to what I think he thought his mind was going to happen. 

Speaker 1: 1:02:56

Well then, you know that it turns out the way you guys. You guys want it. I mean it's 97, 93 again put up 53 in the first half. Also, the note from the halftime I loved Tark somehow missing the halftime buzzer and he's like they're all like running out onto the court. 

Speaker 9: 1:03:12

They didn't get to warm up at all. Well, we're still in the layer. I mean we, I mean literally the locker room. So the court was down on the one end and I mean you had to go a long way. Yeah, it was. It was a I don't know, it was a two-minute jog. It was a long one. Yeah, it was a quarter of a mile probably. I don't even remember that. 

Speaker 1: 1:03:33

Yeah, he came in late and Knight is on the court trying to get the rest to like, hey, let's go the buzzer had the buzzer had gone off and like Tark's like jogging onto the court still with the time you know. Time of the laps. 

Speaker 9: 1:03:45

Well, I don't even remember this. What was the score? Half 53. 

Speaker 1: 1:03:49

You guys had 53. They had 40, 47. Okay, yeah. 

Speaker 9: 1:03:53

Okay, Because I know we got. We got ahead by 12 or 13 at one point too, and they kind of came back and but yeah, I mean that that biggest game. There was just never any frantic moment. You know, maybe a little bit at the end when they just keep draining. 

Speaker 1: 1:04:07

I mean just started hitting three four or five, three crazy threes yeah. 

Speaker 9: 1:04:11

And so you know, but we were ahead by enough. There to was almost like, okay, don't foul, we're going to make our free throws. And it does help when you got a team that can make free throws. It does help the mindset at the end of games because you know, hey, get it to guys that can make free throws, they got a foul, you're going to make them. You know that that that's a soothing deal to end the games. But we also trust each other and coach put in guys that he knew we're going to be able to make plays at the end. And I think that's a huge thing. And and having good teams is trusting guys that they're going to make good decisions. You're not always going to make a play, you're not always going to make every shot, but you're going to make good decisions. And and during that year we made, we didn't lose. We lost Illinois on a close game at Illinois. I don't even remember we got drilled in Iowa. 

Speaker 1: 1:05:02

They were good too. 

Speaker 9: 1:05:03

We lost pretty bad, and I don't even know the other loss, but we won close games. Yeah. And we lost one close game, so we were comfortable that way. 

Speaker 1: 1:05:12

I mean I think that stood out to me so much, Like, despite the fast pace of this, you guys never seemed in a hurry. You know 62% from the floor, so, like you said, it goes to that word. We started where we started out, as like there's so much emphasis on the three and I understand the like, the statistical measure of it. But you know, if you get really good shots and shoot 62%, those are that's you're giving, what that's what their you know defense was giving. You guys took it and took advantage of it. 

Speaker 9: 1:05:42

Well, yeah, and you know when you, when you think about that and him saying let's take the first good shot that we get. If somebody's open, shoot it. You know it takes all the thought process out. You know, oh hey, if I catch the ball is this a good shot, or should I wait till the end of the shot clock? Or, you know, we can maybe work this little no catch, shoot, go to basket. I mean, there was just so much room out there in that game that I remember because they overplayed so many things and we did a good job of handling the ball that when they came in and trapped or did whatever man, all of a sudden now we're four on three and I just remember so much, so much freedom to get to the basket and Vegas did a terrible job of defending away from the ball. They were great on the ball, what they stood and watched. Ball watching they weren't on the ball and man, you could cut and scrain and get. But again you go back to why are you taking threes when you can make twos all day? Or you can get to the foul line. You know I'm not a big, but going back to that was the first year in the NCAA. 

Speaker 1: 1:06:44

And it comes in handy the next game. 

Speaker 9: 1:06:46

Yeah, and Steve hit seven If you're forward, you know if you're hard to guard and you get to the line, you are just. It's amazing. Think about this If you get to the free throw line and you make one of two every single time, you score one point. Every single time you make one. That's like shooting 50% from the field. Okay, you shoot 50% from the field, you got two possessions, you score two points If you get fouled to make one every single time and you know you're going to make more than one. So getting fouled every single time down the floor is a way better deal than shooting 50%. 

Speaker 1: 1:07:17

Yeah, for sure. 

Speaker 9: 1:07:18

And getting fouled comes from being hard to guard, and I mean that's just kind of what the three point thing has become such a big part of college basketball. It's become a huge part of the NBA game too. Because, these inelidic guys are like well, if you make 33% of your threes, you know blah, blah, blah blah. But if you took a deal where threes were made and when they were missed, I guarantee you shooting a three early in the clock isn't as good as inside out, stand it, step into it, knock it down. 

Speaker 1: 1:07:47

They're with you on the free throw thing too. You're right on on that that. That's a great thing, the best guys. 

Speaker 9: 1:07:53

Now with Indiana, they shoot 8, 10, 12 free throws. We shoot 30,. We had games where we shot almost 50. 

Speaker 1: 1:08:00

That's a huge advantage. 

Speaker 9: 1:08:02

From moving and being hard and all the screening and creating guys, you get guys on your hip. And now, now you get a guy on your hip, it's almost impossible not to foul. 

Speaker 1: 1:08:13

Yeah and you're not getting. You're not getting, yeah, and then you're not. Also, like if you're just shooting three, you're not creating that foul where you could get deeper into the other team's bench and get them changing up their lineups too. 

Speaker 9: 1:08:25

And when you miss three, these long rebounds are going the other way. 

Speaker 4: 1:08:27

Yeah, for sure. You know, I mean it just just is For sure. 

Speaker 9: 1:08:30

You know, and so it's interesting on the whole night and I hear it all in football all the time, watching NFL games all the time. It's oh, I know I'll tell you to do this, but analytics don't have any game time game situational concept whatsoever. Yeah, you make 33% of them, but okay, you make 50% of your free throws every single time. Yeah, you're right, give me those and again you're going to shoot better 50%. Yeah so you know, and that's again. You go back to that Vegas game, I think, getting off to a good start and seeing that we could run up and down and we were making shots and we were having success. Just breathe, you know, success breeds more success. And and then you get into a game. I always tell people it's way harder watching the game from the bench. Like you know, you get nervous watching the game. What you get into is fine. 

Speaker 1: 1:09:19

I'm nervous watching. Even I know the outcome. 

Speaker 9: 1:09:22

You know it's way harder. Like I watch my kid play, it's way, you know. I said. I said to my mom we're watching my kid play hockey game and college hockey game, and my mom was to the game. I said my dad's passed the win. I said how did he, how did my, how did dad watch these? Yeah, you know she goes. Oh my God, he used to just pull his hair out. He was so nervous, anxious and just there's just anxiety because you want your kid to do so. Well, but you know, when you're sitting there on the bench and you're watching, it's like, and you know you're going to go in, but at what point? What are you going to do? And but once you get in and you get right up down the floor, now you're into it and it's pretty easy because all that kind of goes away. It's instinct. It's way harder to watch. 

Speaker 1: 1:10:04

What about? Okay, so you guys really blew the I'll speak in analytics things that people are, things that people always talk about, people always talk about. I can't shoot in a dome, but it didn't seem to affect you guys, so was that like in your head to just no one talk about it? Or like, how did you overcome that? 

Speaker 9: 1:10:18

So we played the Hoosier Dome and the Hoosier Dome was a bubble and lighting was terrible, tough to shoot. You got to the Superdome and they put it all down the one end zone and everything else was black except the court. They really darken the court, so the depth perception at the Superdome when you do it in an end zone wasn't nearly as bad as what it was like when you do it with a, a bubble top, where it's pretty light, and so I think that made it a little bit easier and and and they brought the. You know, those stands were brought in and and they. They set that thing up pretty well. Now they put it in the middle of the field. Well, it's, I think it's tough and it is. The domes are tough because there is a. It's not so bad when you're head on, it's when you get to the sides and you start shooting and you're looking up and and you don't see the rim. I mean it's just you kind of. It is a depth perception deal. It takes a little time, but the Hoosier Dome, the Superdome in New Orleans, did a really good job of darkening and and and really making the stands dark to where you had a pretty good shooting background. 

Speaker 1: 1:11:19

Yeah and thought about that. Well, what about after the game? Then you guys had kind of had this serious approach to leading up to the game, very focused and leaving, kind of leaving late, even to New Orleans. But what about after the game? Is there just like right back to the, the focus, is there a chance to celebrate or what's happening? Well, I was interested in. 

Speaker 9: 1:11:36

Because you know, coach, when we were going down there, said hey, we're not going to do anything different, we're going down there and play two games and we're going to do our normal routine. And he was really big on routine, really big yeah. And so I remember I'll gets the dunk and everybody's going crazy. And I remember grabbing all for it and, and and I think it was maybe Darrell because we're out on the corner. So, oh, we got one more game to play, this isn't it. And she was like ah, shut up, joe, we won this game. We'll worry about Monday later. Yeah, and I was, you know. But yeah, we got. I mean, let's see, we we played the late game. So we got back fairly late, we retired. I mean it was a drain, we, we, we didn't get, god, we may not even got back to everybody, back to the hotel. In fact, I think some guys left because we had to get drug tested, so they pulled eight guys. They talked about that. And I, we, we didn't get back until pretty late on that Saturday night. And then what was really interesting is we got up and coached, looked at Steve we were meeting in the uh, in one of the hotel ballroom things where we'd walk through stuff and coach asked Steve and said, hey, do we want to go shoot around today? Steve kind of said, no, I don't know, I'm, I'm pretty tired, and or or. We all said yeah, yeah, yeah, let's, and coached with none. Oh hey, look, we're tired, we're just maybe we should just walk through it. And everyone went yeah, we're fine, because we're going to go shoot around Monday morning, we're good. So Sunday we didn't do anything but walk through. You know, mo watch a lot of film, walk through, uh, start setting up some of our. What we were going to do defensively against Syracuse, now offensively. We didn't have to set much up because you know, if the other team played a man to man, we're going to run a regular offense and you're going to guard us and that there's no setting anything up. Um, but if you watch the, you know the and the last play they go to a box, and one which kind of messed us up after the time out and we had to kind of rearrange everything. It's a good thing we had 29 seconds left, but you know so that that Sunday and it was pouring down rain, very, really humid down into Orleans, and so guys were tired. He wanted us to get our legs back. We walked through a couple of times, we, we ate, we basically just rested, nobody left the hotel, we didn't do anything. Um, and then come Monday we went up, did a uh shoot around Monday morning, probably 11 o'clock, 10 o'clock, walk through a bunch of stuff and then you play. Well, we're playing down there about eight, eight, 15. So, just normal, kept everything the same. I mean that that was he was coached tonight was really really, really good about not making any game bigger than another one, I mean, and and so I was going down there on Friday the day before the game, like we always do. It just didn't become a bigger event. 

Speaker 1: 1:14:21

Yeah, consistency for young people. 

Speaker 9: 1:14:23

It keeps um, keeps people on a level keel and you just it helps with the anxiety at the moment. You know guys 18 to 22 years old, I mean you know you get out of your routine. 

Speaker 1: 1:14:34

you can really yeah, you can really start thinking about it. 

Speaker 9: 1:14:36

That's interesting, oh you know not, and I did like what he like. He said hey, you guys want to go down to New Orleans and have fun, go do it. I think Vegas and them, the lot of those teams, two of them got their Tuesday and the other two, I mean, they were all down there by Wednesday. It was like, well, what are you going to do? That's crazy, I know. I think that helped, uh, helped us, or mindset for sure, yeah. 

Speaker 1: 1:15:04

Night, tark, the shark, camaraderie, the super dome and legendary players. Thank you for joining us for this look back at Indiana versus UNLV 1987, final four game. Iconic seasons 1987 is a principal podcast production. I'm your host and executive producer, aaron Meyer. Robert was my contributor on this episode. If you enjoy this series, head over to Apple podcast, spotify, youtube or wherever you get your podcasts and follow the show. Make sure to leave us a rating and review. It really helps us and helps others discover the show. If you want to get in touch with any questions or comments about this show, send us an email. Our email address is hardwoodhistorycom. You can also find me on Twitter at principal Meyer. Thanks again for listening. We'll be back soon with the final two episodes of iconic seasons 1987.